AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

How on earth is pointing out the literal actual fact that you can’t change biological sex “denying trans exists”?

The word trans is short for trans gender. Gender is not the same as sex. Gender relates to the stereotypes society attaches to the two sexes.

If a trans person believes they can change their sex, they are wrong and it is doing them no kindness to pretend they can. That doesn’t mean anyone denies their dysphoria, or their desire to present themselves in a feminine way (if they are male). And more power to them if men do want to present according to feminine stereotypes. The more men who push against the regressive restrictions of gender expectations and widen the bandwidth of what it means to be men, the better.

Transpeople and gender critical feminists should be natural allies. But where feminists want up dismantle the gender stereotypes altogether, transpeople are (mostly) reinforcing them, only rejecting the one that relates to their biological sex and conforming to those of the opposite sex.

If you think that by rejecting and working to do away with gender stereotypes, feminists are “denying the existence of trans”, then up to a point that’s true, because ultimately gender is a load of bollocks. But surely a situation where men and women, girls and boys could present exactly as they wish, while recognised as a member of their biological sex, and no one batted an eye at a feminine-presenting man in the Gents, then surely those people struggling against the restrictions of the gender stereotypes attached to their sex would be happier, less confused/conflicted/stressed/uncomfortable/persecuted? And how could that possibly be a bad thing?

@RootyT00t
How does that cross a line?
You think there is no need to understand even the most basic concepts of biology when you are working with people who have autism?

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
How does that cross a line?
You think there is no need to understand even the most basic concepts of biology when you are working with people who have autism? [/quote]
Yes that's exactly what I think. Absolutely.
Youre right.

I wonder whether when he was out on the town Bowie used the Ladies or the Gents....

There is already a male bodied sex offender being held in the women's wing of Limerick prison

Two violent male offenders with a history of violence against women in a small (I think less than 30 places) female prison.

By arguing that it is impossible to change sex, you are denying the fact that these people are transgender.

No. No one is denying transgender people exist at all.

However, there does need to be acceptance that they have not changed sex but have changed how they look to replicate the sex they identify with. Because surely there is great harm in that denial, medically and for mental health.

However, no matter how hard you try to straddle this issue, where is the line we need to draw that acknowledges that at this point it is harming females?

FB is trying to draw a line for herself but has admitted that she feels absolutely that her child should without a doubt be eligible to claim awards, prizes and opportunities set aside for girls and women. Because she does not recognize or acknowledge the discrimination females are still experiencing. She hand waved it away stating women are not inferior intellectually. As if that was actually ever in doubt with these Awards, prizes etc.

Again, transpeople need their own awards and recognition but not at the continued expense of women and girls.

This is just one area of course.

So, where is the line?

So, jj please could you provide us with evidence that the number of attacks on transwomen in the men's toilets exceeds that of any other vulnerable male group (teenagers, small camp men etc). I would be grateful for some data on this. It may help provide good evidence for the campaign for neutral third spaces.

Yes please.

@RootyT00t
Then I think I am crazy to be surprised about the lack of support we have for children and young adults with ADHD.

So, jj please could you provide us with evidence that the number of attacks on transwomen in the men's toilets exceeds that of any other vulnerable male group (teenagers, small camp men etc). I would be grateful for some data on this. It may help provide good evidence for the campaign for neutral third spaces.

Trans women don't use male toilets so there's unlikely to be much data.

Do you honestly expect the trans parent on here to send her daughter into the men's? Do you even care what the results of that might be?

Do you even care what the results of my beardie friends with their inspirational lady penises coming into the women's loos might be, for women?

We are supposed to care aren't we. While men aren't supposed to care about women's welfare.

Again, that male privilege, that severe tone of "aren't you proper caring women", while having absolutely no concept that you might care about women's fate having to share personal space with men they don't know.

Where is your concern for women? The women in the jail with Barbie Kardashian for example?

This is text book.

please could you provide us with evidence that the number of attacks on transwomen in the men's toilets exceeds that of any other vulnerable male group

These are two separate issues that should not be conflated:

• if transwomen are unsafe in men's toilets then this is a problem to be addressed, and transwomen may want an alternative choice of toilet facilities.

• women need single sex toilets.

Obvious solution: third space.

Transwomen using female facilities is not the only option for their feeling unsafe in men's toilets, nor is it cost free to females. We should not have some females who end up excluded from any facilities so that some male people may be able to use their preferred choice from all the facilities.

@ScreamingBeans

Do you honestly expect the trans parent on here to send her daughter into the men's? Do you even care what the results of that might be?

Do you even care what the results of my beardie friends with their inspirational lady penises coming into the women's loos might be, for women?

We are supposed to care aren't we. While men aren't supposed to care about women's welfare.

Again, that male privilege, that severe tone of "aren't you proper caring women", while having absolutely no concept that you might care about women's fate having to share personal space with men they don't know.

Where is your concern for women? The women in the jail with Barbie Kardashian for example?

This is text book.

Again though you can't keep batting back to that same man.

You haven't answered the question

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
Then I think I am crazy to be surprised about the lack of support we have for children and young adults with ADHD.[/quote]
You are crazy if you think I was being serious, it was such a stupid question in the first place.

Of course I understand biological sex. That doesn't mean I run around trampling the views and feelings of those who are confused about this.

You are being offensive about my ability in my job based on my personal views on a topic on a forum and I think that's over the line, and I'm not engaging on this.

Oi! RootyT00t! You wanted to watch something! Go and watch it and come back later, otherwise we are depriving you of a pleasure in life.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Oi! RootyT00t! You wanted to watch something! Go and watch it and come back later, otherwise we are depriving you of a pleasure in life.

I'm fuming at OPs.comment, it's distracting me from Barrowman

The problem is, the only form of 'help' if you will that has been given out on here is to tell these people that trans doesn't exist.

Literally no GC women on here have said trans doesn’t exist. What they have said is that they expect spaces reserved for those of the sex class female should be able to exclude those of the sex class male.

I certainly feel nothing like i did reading the first thread, and that's the problem.

There does need to be more of a balance IMO. But there is no solution that’s going to please everyone. Absolutely impossible.

Ignore, Root. Come back later. You need a break. (I am about to make supper so not likely to answer any more for a bit.)

Anyone still reading this, please watch this film - the final 5 minutes of the 4 part documentary is utterly utterly harrowing. It deserves to be watched.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is already a male bodied sex offender being held in the women's wing of Limerick prison

Two violent male offenders with a history of violence against women in a small (I think less than 30 places) female prison.

That's so disturbing - how can people justify this as progressive or liberal?

I remember reading the story of Barbie Kardashian in a mainstream newspaper a few months ago, and they kept saying woman - no mention of the fact that he is biologically male - nothing! The media in Ireland have really been captured on this.

I remember at the time thinking that it was really unusual to have a woman be so sexually violent and aggressive towards other women.... now I know why!

No, but by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans

Not one person has ever denied the existence of trans people.

Are you aware that sex reassignment surgery in the past wasn't given if the person thought they could actually change sex? Because thinking that is possible is a sign that they didn't understand the reality of the procedures and it's consequences.
They understood that they were making themselves as close as they could to their desired presentation to ease their dysphoria. No lies.

Trans people who understand have their voices ignored too.

Now people can apparently change sex on nothing but their say so without any explanation as to how.
How a privileged white male can instantly switch to the most oppressed 'woman' simply by saying they are one.
Call themselves a feminist whilst campaigning for the removal of our sex based rights. Co-opting our oppression to further the position of penis owners.

What we need is correct definitions of sex and gender. Written in law that they are two separate things and that sex must be protected as priority.
Feelings of gender do not override biology.

Can those women in Poland who had their sex based rights removed opt out of their oppression by saying they identify as men?

Also ask yourself, why adult males can be trans without changing a single thing about themselves while the teens, mostly female, are told trans = surgery and drugs?
Even the non binary females seem to have double mastectomies.

Why are the trans teens mostly female with only a tiny number of women over 25 wanting to change sex, whilst most males are over 25 with half being over 40?

Again though you can't keep batting back to that same man.

Which same man? Barbie Kardashian is a young, ultraviolent MTF trans person housed in Limerick prison, with women, who has said multiple times how much they want to kill women and tried to rip a female social worker's eyelids off.

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2020/barbie-norman-bates/

coffee having been in loads of women’s and lesbian groups ,organisations and situations, there is a tendency for men and transwomen to take over said groups organisations and situations having divided the women , so I am not in agreement with you that meeting up even fully clothed is helpful...well not for women anyway . They seem to want everything we have, and also include mixed gay and lesbian groups...see Stonewall, Feminist Library.

Sometimes it simply is a zero sum game. There is no way to square the circle of women needing, and having the legal right to single sex spaces, and transwomen wanting access to those spaces for a variety of reasons - although none of which trump women’s needs.

There are options open to TW: use the spaces allocated to their biological sex, or campaign for third spaces. There is no alternative option open to women who want to maintain the boundary of keeping their spaces single sex.

How entitled do you have to be to demand one group gives up their right to privacy, dignity and safety when there are other options available to you?

@RootyT00t
Didn’t you say this : No, but by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans.

Can you, in good conscience, write something like this on a topic as sensitive as this thread’s where there may be parents (at least one that we know of) who have actively opted to try and change the sex of their children after the reassurance of the medical advice they were receive at that time?
Where is your heart?

Are you aware that sex reassignment surgery in the past wasn't given if the person thought they could actually change sex? Because thinking that is possible is a sign that they didn't understand the reality of the procedures and it's consequences.
They understood that they were making themselves as close as they could to their desired presentation to ease their dysphoria. No lies.

^ This. And it scares the sh*t out of me to think that there are parents in this thread and at least one poster who is working with autistic persons who do not have the clarity to either understand this and/or explain and stand by this.