AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

jj you are completely minimising the issue if you think it is confined to being at risk in the toilets.

I think you know that though.

If any transwoman of any age is assaulted by a man in a men's toilet that is a problem of male violence.

Women have the right to safe spaces in law because they are NEEDED,. Women had to fight for them. We are not going to give them away without a fight.

@Gurufloof

The problem here is that they don't need to campaign for a space because they have one

Fionne orlander has no problem using the mens. Iirc she was in the mens once and a man came in and did a double take. Asked if he was in the correct toilets, told yes I'm a guy by fionne. And as the man was leaving he told fionne she was a really pretty guy.

If fionne can do this, all TW can do this.

And as the man was leaving he told fionne she was a really pretty guy.

Would you appreciate men you've never met telling you they think you're pretty in an enclosed space when you're just trying to go to the loo? I wouldn't be able to get out of there fast enough. This isn't the killer argument you think it is.

But it is a literal fact - you can’t change your sex. You can only change your outward appearance to be a facsimile of the opposite sex. If people are telling people with gender dysphoria they can literally change sex, then that is a very damaging lie

I think trans people know they can’t literally change sex by the way, they’re not daft!

Actually jj correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting it's the person's appearance that is the deciding factor? You took pains to emphasise that how they look seems to be important here.

Do you think this is a workable way forward?

Spoiler - there is only one reported case in UK legal history of a trans woman assaulting a woman in a woman's toilet. The chance of it happening are hundreds of million to one.

I don't think it's the only case of a transwoman assaulting a women/girl in a toilet and it certainly isn't the only case of a transwoman sexually assaulting women/girls. The toilet part is a slight distraction (as many ppl have pointed out we always seem to end up in the toilets) - the point is there are now enough recorded cases of transwomen commiting sexual attacks on females for them to be considered a threat to safety.

I think Hollywood has a lot to answer for this.
Our children see that one bite of a sodding spider makes you Spider-Man. One injection converts you into a zombie and one pill takes you into alternate reality.
So they feel they can change their sex by reversing billions of years of evo-fucking-lution!

@Thewithesarehere

I think Hollywood has a lot to answer for this. Our children see that one bite of a sodding spider makes you Spider-Man. One injection converts you into a zombie and one pill takes you into alternate reality. So they feel they can change their sex by reversing billions of years of evo-fucking-lution!

Join me watching the Barrowman at 6, it's how I keep myself sane through life...

RootyT00t
by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans.

I don't think anyone here has said, or would say that trans people do not exist: this would be equivalent to denying that people with red hair exist.

(Apart from anything else, the people here are of reasonable intelligence, and have observed that there are people who are trans, just as there are red-heads.)

What has been and is denied is that it is physically possible actually to change sex. That is not at all the same thing as saying that trans people do not exist, and deliberate conflation the two in order to paint people who believe in biology as bigots who want to kill all trans (another frequent accusation, usually with the word "literally") is at least part of how this has ended up so divisive.

I have never seen a woman saying trans people should be killed. I have seen plenty of TRAs saying that women should be killed.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

RootyT00t by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans.

I don't think anyone here has said, or would say that trans people do not exist: this would be equivalent to denying that people with red hair exist.

(Apart from anything else, the people here are of reasonable intelligence, and have observed that there are people who are trans, just as there are red-heads.)

What has been and is denied is that it is physically possible actually to change sex. That is not at all the same thing as saying that trans people do not exist, and deliberate conflation the two in order to paint people who believe in biology as bigots who want to kill all trans (another frequent accusation, usually with the word "literally") is at least part of how this has ended up so divisive.

I certainly am not deliberately conflating to encourage that, so please don't connect that to my post.

This is the crucial point though.

By arguing that it is impossible to change sex, you are denying the fact that these people are transgender.

Otherwise, what do you believe they are?

I genuinely don't know how anyone can conclude any numbers of transwomen attacks etc in toilets, because they are recorded as 'women', aren't they? Trans status doesn't generally get recorded as a data point when a crime is reported?

(This is another thing we are trying to fight against, btw... we can't assess risk if proven risk factors like sex class are no longer recorded)

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I have never seen a woman saying trans people should be killed. I have seen plenty of TRAs saying that women should be killed.

I don't disagree with this. I've already said my bit on these hideous people on twitter and their views.

@RootyT00t saying that a person cannot change sex is not the same as saying that trans people don't exist.

In fact logic would tell you that if people could change sex that would mean there would be no such things as trans.

Thanks for your comments about my children. There are 1000s of children in this country that don't have a school place , they tend to be autistic or have ADHD or other mental health issues. i actually spend a lot of time lobbying for better access to education and mental health care because once diagnosed autistic children have no further access to CAMHS in many areas, which is simply discriminatory. They are simply not given the tools to succeed in life.

By arguing that it is impossible to change sex, you are denying the fact that these people are transgender.Otherwise, what do you believe they are?
We are not saying they are not trans gender.
We are saying they are not trans sex and so all sex-based segregation should stay firmly in place. Trans gender people need their own spaces, just as women fought for their spaces.

More help being different help. Help that doesn’t exist, for which there’s no evidence at all and isn’t likely to appear any time soon

We are all on the same side as farbas that goes. We all wish for more effective help for these people. I dont think this is achieved by pretending there's no mental health element. Most people would not be fearful of walking into a space that said mens/women's. We have all don't it occasionally by accident ajd cleaners go in the wrong one all the time. The physical act of walking through the wrong door should not be an issue to anyone.

Lots of people are fearful of alot of things. Like spiders or flying. The responsibility is on them or their care givers to help them through their fears. Seek professional help of its limiting their lives. Its not down to complete strangers to pretend the plane is really a car or the spider is in fact an eight legged kitten.

We all truly hope more support becomes available.

Many do grow out if it after puberty which is why blocking puberty us so dangerous

By arguing that it is impossible to change sex, you are denying the fact that these people are transgender.

Well, transGENDER obviously.

Changed the gender presentation, which is totally possible. Not the biological sex, which is impossible.

And why transGENDER people have no claim on the rights and protections of the opposite SEX.

Op and others, thank you for talking about this. I am in Ireland where the law has already been changed to allow self id, and even our equality legislation recognises gender instead of sex. And nobody seems to be talking about this...the media has been totally captured, it's scary.

I voted for gay marriage in 2015, and had no idea that self id was being piggybacked in along side it. Honestly, if you asked 100 people in the street about this, the vast majority would have no idea that this has happened or what it means for women's rights and sex based provisions.

It's so frustrating how people don't see the danger for women inherent in this. Any man who fills out a form can be legally declared a woman for all purposes.

There is already a male bodied sex offender being held in the women's wing of Limerick prison - this person has a violent history against women, and needs constant garda supervision to stop them attacking the female prisoners - how is this acceptable? This is not progress.

As an aside, of course trans people exist, I don't care if someone wants to called themselves a different name, dress whatever way they want - I think most people don't give a sh!t...this is NOT about being mean to a small number of people struggling with their identity - this is a about the complete capitulation of government, healthcare, education, mainstream media and others to an ideology that completely denies that biology is real.

There are very real consequences for women if we ignore biology. It will be women who lose out on this, who are already losing out - places on the sports podium, places on 'all women' panel and committees.
The word 'woman' has now become controversial an is being slowly removed from public space - how is this acceptable?

@Thewithesarehere

No, but by saying you can't change your biological sex, people are effectively denying the existence of trans. It astonished me that you say this and yet you are working with people with autism. The mind boggles.

Don't get personal about my job, @Thewithesarehere, just because I share a different view to you.

If you think every single person in the world who works within autism shares your trans views you are dreaming.

I am not in my work now. I am a human being.
What I do on a professional basis is a different matter.

RootyT00t
"What has been and is denied is that it is physically possible actually to change sex. That is not at all the same thing as saying that trans people do not exist, and deliberate conflation the two in order to paint people who believe in biology as bigots who want to kill all trans (another frequent accusation, usually with the word "literally") is at least part of how this has ended up so divisive."

I certainly am not deliberately conflating to encourage that, so please don't connect that to my post.

I didn't for a moment intend to suggest that you were! I was pointing out that this myth is a deliberate conflation of fact with absolute fiction. It's falsehood to say that not believing it is possible to change sex is to say that transgender people do not exist.

By arguing that it is impossible to change sex, you are denying the fact that these people are transgender.
Otherwise, what do you believe they are?

I believe that they are transgender, and that this is not the same thing as them having changed sex. Gender and sex are not the same thing.

hi jj - I thought you might be here.

How would you feel if you were told from now on you can only use the men's toilets? Is that comparable to occasionally having to share a space with a trans women in the women's toilets? Who is more likely to get assaulted, the teenage trans girl who always has to use the men's toilets or a non-trans girl who might come across a trans woman about once a year? Spoiler - there is only one reported case in UK legal history of a trans woman assaulting a woman in a woman's toilet. The chance of it happening are hundreds of million to one.

As you well know, the media are rather focused on reporting crimes as committed by the criminals chosen gender identity these days, as are the police who have been recording crimes in the criminals chosen gender identity. So there are rather a lot of crimes committed by males that are listed as being committed by females which makes them harder to research. It has also been enough that it seems to have skewed the figures on sexual assaults by women - the recent and steep increase in this type of crime by 'women' corresponds with the timescale of misreporting by the police.

As you may also remember, you have been provided with rather a lot of evidence of transwomen committing rapes and sexual assaults in all sorts of women's (and public) spaces. You pick on one exact scenario, in an area the is deliberately being obscured by the media and police knowing that there are many other examples available.

R00T you may find the website transcrime uk an interesting resource which rather challenges jj's statement.

Anyway, I'm glad you're here as I've been thinking about this for a little while. Us women have oodles of evidence of attacks by males on females (regardless of how either party identifies). What I have not seen is any evidence of the 'vast numbers' of attacks on transwomen in the men's toilets.

I saw a man on twitter yesterday point out that women who are not bothered about sharing often use the men's toilets and therefore men are quite used to female and female presenting people wandering in while they are having a wee on a regular basis. Add to that the fact that young men seem generally quite keen on dressing up in outlandish outfits on stag do's etc and quite a few transwomen I've seen have chosen 'not to transition their appearance' so appear fully male to any bystander (and therefore have absolutely no reason not to use the men's toilets).

So, jj please could you provide us with evidence that the number of attacks on transwomen in the men's toilets exceeds that of any other vulnerable male group (teenagers, small camp men etc). I would be grateful for some data on this. It may help provide good evidence for the campaign for neutral third spaces.

@RootyT00t
But a basic understanding of biology is directly related to your job.

@Thewithesarehere

Hang on, the position seems to be that a teenage trans girl, who may look indistinguishable from every other girl, should always use male spaces, surrounded by men with their cocks out because the one in three hundred women who are trans might be a threat in the women's toilets. NOW you are being obtuse. How hard is it to understand that a women’s toilet is not a space for a trans woman, regardless of whether they are teen or middle aged. They need their own space. End of.

They need their own space. End of.

And they don't have it, so what do you expect them to do in the meantime. Do you honestly expect the trans parent on here to send her daughter into the men's? Do you even care what the results of that might be?

As an aside, of course trans people exist, I don't care if someone wants to called themselves a different name, dress whatever way they want - I think most people don't give a sh!t...this is NOT about being mean to a small number of people struggling with their identity - this is a about the complete capitulation of government, healthcare, education, mainstream media and others to an ideology that completely denies that biology is real.

YY to all of the above. The insistence that somehow people who don't agree with trans activist ideology 'don't want trans people to exist' is so deceitful and manipulative.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@RootyT00t
But a basic understanding of biology is directly related to your job.[/quote]
My job is jack shit to do with you.

Line crossed.

Thankfully, it's dancing on Ice time

And a couple of questions from further back in the thread:

Why do they put their desire for affirmation before the dignity and safety of women and girls?

Quite simply, male privilege. People AMAB have been brought up in a reality where their desires are given more weight, so their idea of what's neutral and reasonable to expect from AFAB people is skewed. They are (bar the twitter crazies) not bad people, they just are used to the world working a certain way. Despite identifying as women, they've not lived under the social pressure that women have. They may identify AS us but they don't identify WITH us.

Who decides who is a feminist and who isnt.

Watch what they do, not what they say. It'll be pretty obvious.