AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@lifeturnsonadime

Men have absolutely no right to refuse adult human males from using men's toilets.

I have every empathy for the PPs daughter but respectfully this is not about her or my daughter who would struggle with sharing a single sex space with a person with a penis. It is about opening the floodgates to any person who says they are a woman to use single sex spaces and the resultant impact on women of other minorities who have no choice of alternative facilities.

The failure to discuss safe spaces is extremely disrespectful to other people of the sex class they identify into. How can they claim to feel like us yet simultaneously refuse to acknowledge the fact that affirming male bodies into single sex places results in some women having no space at all?

In the same way that you (not you personally)) completely refuse to accept them as they are, continually accuse them of wanting to be better or more important than you and refuse to understand why they want in toilets other than to be a threat.

Third spaces will happen only when the sides see each other. I know how I feel reading some of the posts on here putting me down, sneering and patronising me and I'm not trans , just trying to learn, so while I'm not defending the actions of the idiots on twitter I can see th resistance.

Think il stop trying with you.

Same here. You aren't going to grasp why this is so important to many women, you're automatically taking the side of these male people as if it's unquestionable not to, when you are clearly uninformed about many of the wider issues, and you are failing to acknowledge your own bias in this while attempting to present yourself as the voice of reason on this thread. I'm wasting my time.

But all this stuff about get back in the kitchen accept my beard etc etc. Not a representation of all TW.

That doesn't matter though, does it? The agenda is the same. The effect is the same. The impact on women is the same.

The argument is: although there are very few of us, women, who are half the human race, need to move over and validate us. If that means that their safety, dignity and privacy is utterly destroyed, some of them will be raped, many of them will be driven back to the home because they will be unable to participate in public life, then that is a price worth paying because their lives simply aren't as valuable as our lives.

That's the argument in a nutshell, that I've been hearing for years and that some people have put forward on these threads.

It doesn't matter that it's not being made by all TW. The fact that it's being made and taken seriously and we are having to mount a desperate rearguard action to hold onto the rights we have, when we hadn't yet finished fighting for full equality, means that we have to take it seriously and we have to argue against it.

The argument is: although there are very few of us, women, who are half the human race, need to move over and validate us. If that means that their safety, dignity and privacy is utterly destroyed, some of them will be raped, many of them will be driven back to the home because they will be unable to participate in public life, then that is a price worth paying because their lives simply aren't as valuable as our lives.

That is exactly it, loud and clear. Women don't matter.

Girls shouldn't ever express that they are uncomfortable with their boundaries being ignored, because that may make a male person feel "othered". We shouldn't be teaching them this.

for all this talk about data, I don't think you understand what blockers and hormones actually look like in action.
I know what they look like. This is why I am constantly bleating about the data, to no avail.

because this would be reminding her all the time that she isn't who she is.

No. Because it will be reminding her that she has a very unique, very beautiful place of her own in this world.
And that there are others like her and there is strength in numbers.

We were talking about children rooty

The courts have stopped the courses of medication under 16 now. So teenage girls coming out now will not be on abt medication and will be very clearly female.

Advances of the affirmation approach would place these young transmen in the situation if being at high risk of being in the mens spaces.

Amd how far do we take the denial of biology? Ignore the possibility of pregnancy? Hope that they dont suffer from.a.ruptured ectopic just so no one has to acknowledge biology?

Why do those who affirmation get to be the good guys akd anyone pointing out the very dangerous flaws in the approach are the enemy?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

it just pooped up

Nice typo Impatiens just to lighten the mood

That weren't no typo...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Think il stop trying with you.

Same here. You aren't going to grasp why this is so important to many women, you're automatically taking the side of these male people as if it's unquestionable not to, when you are clearly uninformed about many of the wider issues, and you are failing to acknowledge your own bias in this while attempting to present yourself as the voice of reason on this thread. I'm wasting my time.

I'm not taking anyone side and I also am not trying to present myself as the voice of reason. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to sit in the middle and reason between the two.

I do grasp why it's important but I also grasp why it's important to trans and that's what you don't like.

I acknowledged my own bias 34 pages ago when I talked about my friends who have either taken or attempted to take their lives because of ways they have been uneelcomed or isolated and why that triggers me but that would have been a bit boring for you. That's the only bias I have.

Other people with your views have managed to educate and teach me and correct me without making me feel as you do.

I represent Joe bloggs, human and uneducated but willing to learn. That's all
Yet you continue to put me down with nasty and spiteful comments about my lack of feminist and critical thought despite me already admitting I don't have this .

The reality is people like me will never get on board because of what has been proved on this thread and will be sucked in by the other side which seems more wccepting. I've recognised that and am trying to learn from all your experiences so I can not only grow buy also pass this on to the people I know and young people I work alongside. But you carry on lecturing and being patronising and rude to people who want to learn. That position has gone really well so far.

@Whatwouldscullydo

So a young person who has done jack shit wrong should be told this (damaging) information and sod them that they can't have what they want so that women can have what they want because theres more of them

Surely someone at some point has to tell the truth?

Is it more damaging to be honest from the beginning abd then help someone come to terms with reality ?

Or do you risk the reality coming out at a time where they are eveb more vulnerable. Like a medical emergency.

Does this not leave the young person with no one they can trust?

Um, transpeople do not typically walk around in denial. It's very hard to do that when you're jabbing yourself with needles everyday and have a giant uncomfortable implant in your arm. My sd knows she's a biological male and has no issues owning up to her transness in appropriate circumstances. In fact, she currently only dates other transwomen. There is a whole group of them out there in the world, living their lives and being trans. It's VERY scary.

That weren't no typo.

Women should not be expected to give away safe spaces and they should be guaranteed.
I would be happy to support the need for a third space. If more and more people identify as other genders the need for a third 'all genders' space will be called for anyway, for non binary people etc etc who do not believe they fit into a gender binary.
This would safeguard women's spaces from sexual crime and becoming collateral damage.
I feel like we must fight now to uphold these spaces as once given away, whatever the negative outcome we'll never get them back.

why that triggers me but that would have been a bit boring for you.

Do you honestly think this is a productive way to have the conversation you say you want to have?

The problem here is that they don't need to campaign for a space because they have one

Fionne orlander has no problem using the mens. Iirc she was in the mens once and a man came in and did a double take. Asked if he was in the correct toilets, told yes I'm a guy by fionne. And as the man was leaving he told fionne she was a really pretty guy.

If fionne can do this, all TW can do this.

The reality is people like me will never get on board because of what has been proved on this thread and will be sucked in by the other side which seems more wccepting.

It isn't. You only think it is because we live in a largely misogynistic society, and you admitted you are more comfortable with men on the other thread. So that's understandable. Setting yourself up as Devil's Advocate or some kind of impartial mediator is generally considered quite presumptuous though.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

why that triggers me but that would have been a bit boring for you.

Do you honestly think this is a productive way to have the conversation you say you want to have?

Aye thats right @Ereshkigalangcleg Pick out a sentence and jump on it - that's been the MO since I arrived on this thread - at one point I was battling off 3 people at a time quoting the same one.

But yet I remained. Why? To learn. Do you think I'm stupid enough to think that my very basic views are going to change all your minds? Of course I don't!

I stand by it though. I was very honest and admtted pages ago my original knee jerk motives for being here and taking the stance I do yet you continue to berate me for my lack of academia, critical, feminist, thought.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The reality is people like me will never get on board because of what has been proved on this thread and will be sucked in by the other side which seems more wccepting.

It isn't. You only think it is because we live in a largely misogynistic society, and you admitted you are more comfortable with men on the other thread. So that's understandable. Setting yourself up as Devil's Advocate or some kind of impartial mediator is generally considered quite presumptuous though.

I am not setting myself up as any of those things.

I do feel more comfortable with men although I'm not sure that's your story to share.

Jack shit to do with this. You are determined to out me as something I'm not.

No empathy has-been shown to FBs daughter and then we want to ask her where her empathy is.

That's completely untrue. I don't know what age they are - missed a bit of the thread if it was stated - but if they're a child then the empathy here with children runs very deep and has been stated on this thread and numerous others in a variety of ways.

PP constantly say they understand the pressures to conform, empathise with confusion and fear and feelings of being outside societal norms, about the difficulties of growing up as a gnc child. They are also hugely concerned about the medicalisation of these feelings in terms of offering drug and surgical treatments. This concern comes from empathy - imagining ourselves or our own children in such a terrible dilemma. I also empathise with adult TW who genuinely just want to get on with their lives without causing problems to others, like any other bod.

But, as others have said, I just don't empathise with the mindset that derides Women's fears as 'bigotry' and pretends that there is no threat to Women's safety and equality when the effects of trans activism has already had a very damaging impact.

Pick out a sentence and jump on it

I felt it was uncalled for and rude, just like you cherry picked a couple of my observations out of a longer post I made.

do yet you continue to berate me for my lack of academia, critical, feminist, thought.

I haven't said anything about academia I just found it frustrating trying to talk to you about feminism.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The reality is people like me will never get on board because of what has been proved on this thread and will be sucked in by the other side which seems more wccepting.

It isn't. You only think it is because we live in a largely misogynistic society, and you admitted you are more comfortable with men on the other thread. So that's understandable. Setting yourself up as Devil's Advocate or some kind of impartial mediator is generally considered quite presumptuous though.

I know it isn't more accepting. Now. By reading this thread and learning. By the earlier posts from older women who educated me. Do you think the likes of me learn from posts from you where you basically put us down, belittle us and continually make reference to us being uneducated helps us see your point or pushes us back to the other side?

No empathy has-been shown to FBs daughter and then we want to ask her where her empathy is.
Empathy? I am bloody incensed on that child’s behalf.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

do yet you continue to berate me for my lack of academia, critical, feminist, thought.

I haven't said anything about academia I just found it frustrating trying to talk to you about feminism.

You have said more than once about my lack of feminist thought or made reference to me being uneducated.

But, as others have said, I just don't empathise with the mindset that derides Women's fears as 'bigotry' and pretends that there is no threat to Women's safety and equality when the effects of trans activism has already had a very damaging impact.

Me neither. My empathy has limits. And does for anyone with healthy boundaries around others.