AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

There is a clash between girl’s needs and trans woman /trans girls wishes. This needs to be discussed so that a solution can be found. I would argue for a third space.

YY.

@lifeturnsonadime

This will never, ever happen for as long as the divide is so strong.

i don't understand WHY the divide is so strong. Why do TW have no empathy for the needs of the sex class that they identify into?

Why do they put their desire for affirmation before the dignity and safety of women and girls?

IMO? As a fence sitter?

Your question that why TW have no empathy isn't fair here.

It's the two campaigns doing the damage , not individual TW. Everybody being tarred with the same brush.

When this conversation started yesterday or the day before and I asked about why people can't be in toilets nobody mentioned the likes of FBs daughter. It was all about these maniacs on Twitter. The problem being as PP pointed out that there is no way to police this.

But the problem is, by asking why your dignity and privacy doesn't come before their rights , you are putting them second. And by wanting to come in, you believe they are putting you second (but in cases where it's a perfectly well meaning TW, they aren't. They just want to be included ).

This argument will not be resolved because women will continue to get fired up and say things that to outsiders look transphobic, TWAW will run with this and cause even more divides.

The they should respect us and just stay out will never happen. It just won't.

Pps have mentioned that we should all work together for a third space. Perfect....except what you're actually asking TW to do is campaign for a space which rejects them.

A female toilet to you is a place of safety and privacy. To them, it's a place of being accepted. Neither is more important than the other. IMO.

@ScreamingBeans

Yes, all 8 stone of my daughter would stand a fighting chance...

And yet women who are also 8 stone, should get back to the kitchen if they don't want to share a changing room with a beardie bloke of 6ft.

@ScreamingBeans you cannot keep batting back FBs comments with a tweet by one person. Not cricket.

A female toilet to you is a place of safety and privacy. To them, it's a place of being accepted. Neither is more important than the other. IMO.

I disagree. It's not my job to validate the identity of others, who subscribe to an ideology I think is harmful. It's more important for women and girls to have safety, privacy and dignity.

Better that millions of women are sent back to the kitchen, than even 1 male person be told women have the right to set boundaries.

how the urinary leash keeps women at home

@Ereshkigalangcleg

because this would be reminding her all the time that she isn't who she is.

It would be reminding this young person that they can't actually change their sex, that it isn't possible, and that other people have rights too and sometimes in life you can't have everything completely how you want it, especially when the majority would suffer if your interests took precedence. Which I think is an important life lesson, and one many people don't seem to have had.

Right....

So a young person who has done jack shit wrong should be told this (damaging) information and sod them that they can't have what they want so that women can have what they want because theres more of them.

Some would argue that it's the women who should be more accepting and learn they can't have everything they want.

And before anyone starts up about this bloody bearded man again, I'm talking more about the complete and utter cold dismissal of a teenager in a discussion about empathy. PP want the teen to have empathy for you and stay out. Where's yours for her?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A female toilet to you is a place of safety and privacy. To them, it's a place of being accepted. Neither is more important than the other. IMO.

I disagree. It's not my job to validate the identity of others, who subscribe to an ideology I think is harmful. It's more important for women and girls to have safety, privacy and dignity.

If you didn't think the idealogy was harmful, would you feel this strongly?

If the rights of women and girls counted for anything, gender identity ideology would not have got the foothold it has. If women were considered as important as MTF trans people, third spaces and reasonable adjustments where possible for trans people would be the only options.

Second to what though? They still have the option to use toilets for their biological sex. Women in religious minorities have no other option.

They won't even discuss third spaces. It is the fact that they won't discuss third spaces or even acknowledge that women and girls may suffer discomfort that leads me to query the lack of empathy towards the class of people they identify into.

No one answers this question. Why is that? It's because they can't do so without admitting they do not consider the needs of other women and girls to be as significant as their own.

If you didn't think the idealogy was harmful, would you feel this strongly?

About males in female spaces, yes. About the ideology itself, how can I answer, when I do?

@lifeturnsonadime

Second to what though? They still have the option to use toilets for their biological sex. Women in religious minorities have no other option.

They won't even discuss third spaces. It is the fact that they won't discuss third spaces or even acknowledge that women and girls may suffer discomfort that leads me to query the lack of empathy towards the class of people they identify into.

No one answers this question. Why is that? It's because they can't do so without admitting they do not consider the needs of other women and girls to be as significant as their own.

They do, up until the men make the same decision as you. Now what?

But thats never a fair question really is it. No empathy has-been shown to FBs daughter and then we want to ask her where her empathy is.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If you didn't think the idealogy was harmful, would you feel this strongly?

About males in female spaces, yes. About the ideology itself, how can I answer, when I do?

Sorry I don't understand. What I mean is...if you didn't think trans was a harmful idealogy, like I don't , would you still feel the same?

So a young person who has done jack shit wrong should be told this (damaging) information and sod them that they can't have what they want so that women can have what they want because theres more of them

Surely someone at some point has to tell the truth?

Is it more damaging to be honest from the beginning abd then help someone come to terms with reality ?

Or do you risk the reality coming out at a time where they are eveb more vulnerable. Like a medical emergency.

Does this not leave the young person with no one they can trust?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If the rights of women and girls counted for anything, gender identity ideology would not have got the foothold it has. If women were considered as important as MTF trans people, third spaces and reasonable adjustments where possible for trans people would be the only options.

But that solution isn't women as important as trans.

It's women more important than trans.

Some would argue that it's the women who should be more accepting and learn they can't have everything they want

Us older women will tell you that we have been taught this from a very young age by the society we grew up in. Single sex spaces for woman are a NEED not a want.

@ScreamingBeans you cannot keep batting back FBs comments with a tweet by one person. Not cricket.

Yes. I can. Because that tweet actually says it all. That is at the heart of this - if women cannot be guaranteed of safe spaces in public where they can get changed, then they will be unable to participate in normal life.

An example: I used to go to the gym before work, have a workout, have a shower, get changed go to work.

If there were no safe showers, that's a freedom that future generations of women won't have.

You may say that's a #firstworldproblem. But men have that freedom and in order to have equal rights with men, women need the same freedoms as them. We will never be equal, while our lives are more constrained than those of men. Safe public spaces where women can go knowing there will be no men there, are absolutely essential for women to participate in public life. Absolutely essential, it cannot be overstated how important they are. That is why UNICEF are campaigning for safe women's toilets in many countries in Asia and Africa, they recognise the lack of safe spaces for women as one of the factors in keeping women out of public space.

@Whatwouldscullydo

So a young person who has done jack shit wrong should be told this (damaging) information and sod them that they can't have what they want so that women can have what they want because theres more of them

Surely someone at some point has to tell the truth?

Is it more damaging to be honest from the beginning abd then help someone come to terms with reality ?

Or do you risk the reality coming out at a time where they are eveb more vulnerable. Like a medical emergency.

Does this not leave the young person with no one they can trust?

Behave. I'm not a fan of this agenda dressed up as concern for the young person. This is not what this is about.

Where's yours for her?

This is a male person wanting to use female spaces against the will of most women and girls. Why am I required to empathise with that? I empathise that they have a difficult medical condition. Lots of other people do too. Life is unfair. Why is it always women who are expected to put ourselves second because others are more important, and feel themselves to be a higher priority?

I know you don't really have much in the way of feminist analysis or are particularly sympathetic to the idea of sex based oppression but seriously, have a think about it.

[quote ScreamingBeans]**@ScreamingBeans you cannot keep batting back FBs comments with a tweet by one person. Not cricket.

Yes. I can. Because that tweet actually says it all. That is at the heart of this - if women cannot be guaranteed of safe spaces in public where they can get changed, then they will be unable to participate in normal life.

An example: I used to go to the gym before work, have a workout, have a shower, get changed go to work.

If there were no safe showers, that's a freedom that future generations of women won't have.

You may say that's a #firstworldproblem. But men have that freedom and in order to have equal rights with men, women need the same freedoms as them. We will never be equal, while our lives are more constrained than those of men. Safe public spaces where women can go knowing there will be no men there, are absolutely essential for women to participate in public life. Absolutely essential, it cannot be overstated how important they are. That is why UNICEF are campaigning for safe women's toilets in many countries in Asia and Africa, they recognise the lack of safe spaces for women as one of the factors in keeping women out of public space.[/quote]
I don't disagree.

But all this stuff about get back in the kitchen accept my beard etc etc.

Not a representation of all TW.

Men have absolutely no right to refuse adult human males from using men's toilets.

I have every empathy for the PPs daughter but respectfully this is not about her or my daughter who would struggle with sharing a single sex space with a person with a penis. It is about opening the floodgates to any person who says they are a woman to use single sex spaces and the resultant impact on women of other minorities who have no choice of alternative facilities.

The failure to discuss safe spaces is extremely disrespectful to other people of the sex class they identify into. How can they claim to feel like us yet simultaneously refuse to acknowledge the fact that affirming male bodies into single sex places results in some women having no space at all?

Of course we are concerned about the youngsters caught up in this.

Adults are fighting for the right to self identify whilst making no alterations at all whilst simultaneously fighting for the right of children to access drugs a court just deemed it was impossible impossible children to understand ajd consent to.

We are extremely concerned about the welfare if children.

Young transnen are not safe on the mens room its a very dangerous source of validation

But that solution isn't women as important as trans.

It's women more important than trans.

No it isn't. It's the only reasonable compromise. Anything else makes a minority of the male population disproportionately favoured over the female population.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Where's yours for her?

This is a male person wanting to use female spaces against the will of most women and girls. Why am I required to empathise with that? I empathise that they have a difficult medical condition. Lots of other people do too. Life is unfair. Why is it always women who are expected to put ourselves second because others are more important, and feel themselves to be a higher priority?

I know you don't really have much in the way of feminist analysis or are particularly sympathetic to the idea of sex based oppression but seriously, have a think about it.

Your bottom paragraph is a bit spiteful, and completely uncalled for.

Think il stop trying with you.

You asked earlier why people can't understand your views and get on board - how you've just made me feel is why.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Of course we are concerned about the youngsters caught up in this.

Adults are fighting for the right to self identify whilst making no alterations at all whilst simultaneously fighting for the right of children to access drugs a court just deemed it was impossible impossible children to understand ajd consent to.

We are extremely concerned about the welfare if children.

Young transnen are not safe on the mens room its a very dangerous source of validation

But by your logic, a transman is a woman regardless of what he has

So if he has a penis he's not allowed in with you but he's a woman so he's at risk in the male toilets as you are in the female with men. That doesn't validate anything other than how utterly divisive this whole thing is.

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