AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

[quote ScreamingBeans]Then keep your daughter safe at home then

"Women - get out of public space, get back to the kitchen, men are re-claiming what's rightfully there's and sending you back to the home".

ideas4development.org/en/unexpected-link-access-toilets-womens-rights/[/quote]
If that's the choice you want to make as a parent, I can't stop you.

but I'm not locking mine away for the comfort of yours.

Hyperbole. No one expects anyone to be "locked away". Just to respect the privacy and dignity of women and girls.

@Thewithesarehere

Third spaces do not for the most part exist so it is largely irrelevent. But surely we should all fight together to create them?

@Fastedbrownie isn't going to fight for her daughter to not be allowed in the toilet though. That would be ridiculous.

This is where the argument stops at a dead end. A poster said it earlier. The problem is, twaw and tra are so opposed they can't compromise (and people like me who float around in the middle are told they can't).

Expecting FBs daughter to fall on her sword is the same as her expecting you to fall on yours. Your argument would be, I think that as she wants to be a woman she should want to keep you safe - but you are expecting her to sacrifice herself. All the arguments about but i am a real woman and we fought for years doesn't change that.

It would be interesting if there is a response to this without the mention of grown men violating but this isn't the case here.

the likes of OPs daughter are collateral here.What you have to ask yourself is whether that is fair.

PP not OP apologies

I feel the only way to resolve this issue is for all toilets to be single use only, regardless of how you identify as a person.
However, realistically this is never going to happen due to the vast cost this would need to change all the facilities we currently have.
Until this happens, or even if this happens in the future, I strongly believe that that if you have male genitalia - regardless of how you look outwardly, then you should always use the male facilities.
Women and girls, people who were born with female genitalia, need a safe and private space without people who have male genitalia being there.
Women and girls are half the population and deserve to be treated as equally as men and boys.
Men need to be educated to allow other men to use male facilities, regardless of the clothes they wear.
As a woman and the mother of a girl and a boy, I need all female spaces to be free from any men of any description, and feel that the rights of all women and girls need to be enforced, not given away to any Tom, Dick or Harry!!!!!
People who have changed their gender need to campaign for a third safe space, not erode mine.

it just pooped up

Nice typo Impatiens just to lighten the mood

In your heart you know @Fastedbrownie that my daughter might not stand a chance again a biological male but your child might.
Good for you.

@Greeneyedminx

I feel the only way to resolve this issue is for all toilets to be single use only, regardless of how you identify as a person. However, realistically this is never going to happen due to the vast cost this would need to change all the facilities we currently have. Until this happens, or even if this happens in the future, I strongly believe that that if you have male genitalia - regardless of how you look outwardly, then you should always use the male facilities. Women and girls, people who were born with female genitalia, need a safe and private space without people who have male genitalia being there. Women and girls are half the population and deserve to be treated as equally as men and boys. Men need to be educated to allow other men to use male facilities, regardless of the clothes they wear. As a woman and the mother of a girl and a boy, I need all female spaces to be free from any men of any description, and feel that the rights of all women and girls need to be enforced, not given away to any Tom, Dick or Harry!!!!! People who have changed their gender need to campaign for a third safe space, not erode mine.

The problem here is that they don't need to campaign for a space because they have one.

What we need 'them' to do is understand where women are coming from and want a third space.

This will never, ever happen for as long as the divide is so strong.

the likes of OPs daughter are collateral here.What you have to ask yourself is whether that is fair.

Women and girls shouldn't be collateral either. If it's such a tiny insignificant matter who gets to pee where, MTF trans people can perfectly well use the male toilets, so any emotive appeals fail.

@Thewithesarehere

In your heart you know *@Fastedbrownie* that my daughter might not stand a chance again a biological male but your child might. Good for you.

As devils advocate here, FB is never going to instill that thought in her daughter and encourage her to do this, because this would be reminding her all the time that she isn't who she is.

the likes of OPs daughter are collateral here.What you have to ask yourself is whether that is fair.

Life isn't fair though is it. Is it fair that the implication of this is that women and girls of other minority groups, particularly religious minorities and victims of abuse, will no longer feel able to use the spaces that we're provided for them by law to give them these freedoms.

Why do the rights of one minority trump those of others. Why don't the feelings of these women count?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

the likes of OPs daughter are collateral here.What you have to ask yourself is whether that is fair.

Women and girls shouldn't be collateral either. If it's such a tiny insignificant matter who gets to pee where, MTF trans people can perfectly well use the male toilets, so any emotive appeals fail.

No they shouldn't.

But it isn't an insignificant matter. That's the whole problem!

Hey Muslim and Jewish women and girls. There may be a biological male in your single sex space. Best you just stay at home to not to hurt their feelings.

@lifeturnsonadime

the likes of OPs daughter are collateral here.What you have to ask yourself is whether that is fair.

Life isn't fair though is it. Is it fair that the implication of this is that women and girls of other minority groups, particularly religious minorities and victims of abuse, will no longer feel able to use the spaces that we're provided for them by law to give them these freedoms.

Why do the rights of one minority trump those of others. Why don't the feelings of these women count?

Did you read my post? Or just pick out that one sentence?

Yeah @Fastedbrownie I'm trying here but you telling people to stay at home has pretty much sent my devils advocate as a fence sitter into flames.

This will never, ever happen for as long as the divide is so strong.

i don't understand WHY the divide is so strong. Why do TW have no empathy for the needs of the sex class that they identify into?

Why do they put their desire for affirmation before the dignity and safety of women and girls?

The problem here is that they don't need to campaign for a space because they have one.

They don't "have" female spaces. They've decided they can come into them anyway and trans lobby organisations have told them they can. They're male. Female spaces are for female people. They know many women and girls aren't at all happy about it, but many just don't care.

@Rooty I read the whole post but that sentence was the one i picked up on because it goes to the root of the matter.

As devils advocate here, FB is never going to instill that thought in her daughter and encourage her to do this, because this would be reminding her all the time that she isn't who she is

Personally this is what worries me in that the whole thing is reliant on other people.

Parents will just do what medical professionals advise but in this case it is completely reliant on complete strangers going along with it. Then the anger and abuse is aimed at thise who don't when really it should be aimed at those who are telling someone something so biologically impossible.

I agree with Fastedbrownie about the importance of female only sports, prisons and something else I think?

I disagree with shelters for homeless, rape victims m and those who flee domestic abuse. They should definitely be single sex I cannot imagine how a rape victim would feel calling a help line and have it answered by a male voice.

I also disagree about toilets. Teenage girls are sensitive, embarrassed about their bodies and very sensitive. I cannot image my daughters being in a female toilet and trying to clean themselves after having their first period (or any in the first year) and standing next to a trans woman. That would be beyond embarrassing for any young girl.

It seems that many trans people are deeply unhappy about being mistaken for their biological sex. I am very sorry about that and obviously they should get help. It also seems that many are very happy to present as trans. That is great for them.

It just does seem to be conflicting interests here. Example: Trans woman / trans girl wants to be in the female toilets as they feel like a woman. Girl has her period, has blood on her hands or clothes and is mortified. Girl does not want to encounter tran woman / trans girl in this situation. This situation is something that all girls and women above a certain age have been in and emphasise with. Trans woman / trans girl will never be in this situation (this is just an example. Example of rape victims have been above).

There is a clash between girl’s needs and trans woman /trans girls wishes. This needs to be discussed so that a solution can be found. I would argue for a third space.

But it isn't an insignificant matter. That's the whole problem!

I agree. That's why most women and girls don't want males in female spaces which are sex segregated for good reasons. It's not about them being transgender and it's disingenuous for people to present it that way, as they commonly do. It's about privacy and dignity and freedom from the male gaze.

@Thewithesarehere

In your heart you know *@Fastedbrownie* that my daughter might not stand a chance again a biological male but your child might. Good for you.

Yes, all 8 stone of my daughter would stand a fighting chance...

For all this talk about data, I don't think you understand what blockers and hormones actually look like in action.

because this would be reminding her all the time that she isn't who she is.

It would be reminding this young person that they can't actually change their sex, that it isn't possible, and that other people have rights too and sometimes in life you can't have everything completely how you want it, especially when the majority would suffer if your interests took precedence. Which I think is an important life lesson, and one many people don't seem to have had.

Yes, all 8 stone of my daughter would stand a fighting chance...

And yet women who are also 8 stone, should get back to the kitchen if they don't want to share a changing room with a beardie bloke of 6ft.