AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

I have gone back and checked. It’s funny how all my posts that asked for registrational trial data for puberty blockers have been deleted. Where does the money trail for these drugs and the surgeries lead to?

Just in regards to teenagers and children, please also understand some of the regular posters have direct experience with the way this ideology is impacting our teens and children. For some it is closer to home than others of course.

But I have seen 4 out of 6 of my daughters friends come out as trans, one is a transboy. They are 14. This is not uncommon.

When you talk about the concern that people, young females in particular, feeling forced to transition, this is of great concern. So to is the complete lack of insight and research that these clinics have done into the rapid increase of teen girls. It is certainly why I laugh bitterly when people throw around that we are transphobic.

We are desperately fighting to get the best care for our children, desperately wanting to have the research done and NOT have this research decreed as phobic.

To not have the clinics deeply involved in finding out why these girls are transitioning in large numbers is a major concern. And the number of them are detransitioning is also growing. But to look for reasons, to treat comorbidities before transitioning is being treated as conversion therapy.

This is happening right now! The Keira Bell case is another place to go or any interview with Abigail Shier.

archive.org/details/TransKidsItsTimeToTalk

Triggernometry

Newsnight expose

Obviously, up to you if you want to watch them.

Re : How things change fast.

When we bought this house on my salary alone, several banks wanted to know why my husband was not earning
and one tried to insist that he was put on as lead mortgage applicant
even though I was the only earner
cos like men never bought houses with wives not earning
that was in the mid 90's
in England

I think the video has an interview with Jennifer Bilek.

This is part of her work. She investigated the pharma billionaire families who are backing this and no surprise, their transgender family board members. Now, up to you how you much you believe but it is certainly more compellingly believable than the UK feminists and groups are funded by far right USA organisations.

www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-lgbt-nonprofits-and-their-billionaire-patrons-are-reshaping-the-world/

I havent caught up quite, but I think RootyToot said that she cant imagine what it must feel like to spend your childhood not fitting in, and then that «you transition physically and emotionally» to the other sex. (Or gender?, my memory is rubbish and I cant highlight on this device)

There is certainly no denying that it is awful to spend your whole childhood not fitting in. But that is the case when you are not fitting in for any reason. It is truly awful, but not something that only happen to trans people.
But then comes the «transition physically OR emotionally». And I dont understand how you can transition emotionally. That is too intangible for me.
And also an important part of the issue: if anyone can self ID their gender and then they must be accepted not only as that gender, but as having that sex, we are on a very slippery slope for those with body dysphoria also. Because then there simply will no longer be any need for them to transition physically because they can just transition emotionally and self ID.

And as people have pointed out ad nauseam: if everybody can just self ID the wording of so many hard won rights and legal achievements will be just become meaningless word soup, and we will enter a very dangerous period in time where women’s rights, children’s rights etc will count for nothing.
(A bit like Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, for History nerds. Even if it is a crap analogy)

So the proper definitions of biological sex must not be allowed to be diluted.

I just had to write that down to Get my head around it.
Will go back to page 4 to catch up!

Invisible Women is a really great book btw, not about gender or trans issues, but a great collection of evidence about how women are screwed over in ways big and small. And it's the small ways that are sometimes the most fascinating and frustrating. If you were shocked at marital rape being legal in the 90s there's loads of other eye-opening stuff in the book.

You might have to read it in small chunks as it will enrage you...!

[quote Winesalot]I think the video has an interview with Jennifer Bilek.

This is part of her work. She investigated the pharma billionaire families who are backing this and no surprise, their transgender family board members. Now, up to you how you much you believe but it is certainly more compellingly believable than the UK feminists and groups are funded by far right USA organisations.

www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-lgbt-nonprofits-and-their-billionaire-patrons-are-reshaping-the-world/[/quote]
Thanks for posting this link. I am quite sure that, within the highly influential healthcare businesses of USA, there will lots of dark powers who would quite like to make money off the back of this movement.
Does anyone know what is the average cost of breast removal surgery for a 15-year old?
Surgery and puberty blockers (and the subsequent need for life-long treatments) is a huge market, too much money to ignore.

Guess what, this means there is a potential for brining in huge lawsuits too.

This sounds promising for someone who has a lot of money to fight this sort of fight.

I have several friends who have made attempts on their life because of expectations on them in one way or the other, because they can't be who they are expected to be, because they haven't been accepted, because they will never be happy with who they are.

It affects me.
----------------
Re: this - of course it affects you. You told us roughly your age. The period from 14-25 is one of the hardest in one's life I think. But people do change. It used to be argued that 30 was old, but actually it is probably about the time young people really begin to get a sense of who they are, having gone through all the turmoil of "becoming". So to be encouraged by unscrupulous people on the internet or culture into choices so young that are irrevocable and will medicalise them and make them vulnerable is something the women on this thread are trying to protect against. It is because we care, not because we don't, that we are trying to speak up. It is about acceptance of people as they are. Not only if they conform to a stereotype and change their body accordingly. Those messages are coming from someone that doesn't have the best interests of most young people at heart. My own youth was in the 80s - loads of gender bending people then, but we embraced it as a culture, there was no medication.

@DeaconBoo

Invisible Women is a really great book btw, not about gender or trans issues, but a great collection of evidence about how women are screwed over in ways big and small. And it's the small ways that are sometimes the most fascinating and frustrating. If you were shocked at marital rape being legal in the 90s there's loads of other eye-opening stuff in the book.

You might have to read it in small chunks as it will enrage you...!

It’s an excellent book.

@JoodyBlue

I have several friends who have made attempts on their life because of expectations on them in one way or the other, because they can't be who they are expected to be, because they haven't been accepted, because they will never be happy with who they are.

It affects me.
----------------
Re: this - of course it affects you. You told us roughly your age. The period from 14-25 is one of the hardest in one's life I think. But people do change. It used to be argued that 30 was old, but actually it is probably about the time young people really begin to get a sense of who they are, having gone through all the turmoil of "becoming". So to be encouraged by unscrupulous people on the internet or culture into choices so young that are irrevocable and will medicalise them and make them vulnerable is something the women on this thread are trying to protect against. It is because we care, not because we don't, that we are trying to speak up. It is about acceptance of people as they are. Not only if they conform to a stereotype and change their body accordingly. Those messages are coming from someone that doesn't have the best interests of most young people at heart. My own youth was in the 80s - loads of gender bending people then, but we embraced it as a culture, there was no medication.

I know. 💖

That post was in relation to why I get so irate about something I'm actually clearly not that educated about.

Just because a few people on the thread have mentioned politicians and feeling disillusioned, I just saw this from the SDP on Twitter.

sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

They appear to be sort of Old Labour/ (for those of you old enough to remember) ‘Gang of 4’ ish. Leftish on workers rights, rightish on social justice.

RootyT00T

Just to say you have my respect for the way you have handled yourself. You’ve been a lone voice on this thread and it would have been easy to run away but you stood up for yourself but also listened. I personally don’t see that there can be a compromise because TWAW and transwomen are men are not something you can compromise on.

@Smileyaxolotl1

RootyT00T

Just to say you have my respect for the way you have handled yourself. You’ve been a lone voice on this thread and it would have been easy to run away but you stood up for yourself but also listened. I personally don’t see that there can be a compromise because TWAW and transwomen are men are not something you can compromise on.

Thanks ! Appreciated

I did leave actually as I felt I was beginning to take over it because of the sheer number fired at me , ironically it was the spiteful PP digging me out for that that brought me back!

RootyT00t
1992?
I nearly said words that will get me banned.
Really?? that late???

Marital rape was not fully made illegal until the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which is a bloody disgrace.

I had a bank account in 1967, and didn't have a husband. And my mother (who got two degrees before she had her children) had a bank account in her own name which was nothing to do with my father's bank account; it wasn't even with the same bank, and I think she'd had it since before she married in the 1940s, because I remember her telling us once (when we complaining about our unspellable surname) that when she went to change her name at the bank after she married they spelt it wrong and had to be corrected.

I have been going into pubs on my own since perhaps 1968, and I was only ever refused service once, when I got falling-over drunk, which used to get you told to go home and sleep it off.

The contraceptive pill was available from the Brook Advisory Centres from 1964 so long as you were over sixteen, and they never asked what your marital status was unless what you were after was an abortion. It not being available before 1961 may have been because it only started being manufactured in any quantity in 1960. The cap was available long before that: Marie Stopes opened her clinic in 1921, and the National Birth Control Association (later the Family Planning Association, some time just before the War) was founded in 1931.

It was also in 1968 that a judge refused to hear a divorce case on the grounds that the plaintiff, a woman, was wearing a trouser suit; and hotels and restaurants and coffee-bars refused to serve women in trouser-suits. For some reason, the same fuss was never made about women in mini-skirts.

You might have to read it in small chunks as it will enrage you...!

Yes. I am on my second reading and I’m still fucking furious, 2 chapters in.

@RootyT00t

Fair play for you coming on here and patiently engaging. It has been fascinating reading yours, and everyone’s responses. And obviously thank you to all those who were posing the questions and digging out evidence in response.

And yet, in USA women's rights to abortion and contraception via their health insurance is being taken away. In Poland, abortion rights have been removed. Women and girls are being enslaved by their biology. Again. This is why it is so, so important to recognise that biological sex matters.

RootyT00t - I am glad you have moved on from accusing people (including me) of being "transphobic" for stating the indisputable fact that it is impossible for anyone to change their biological sex

Has anyone already recommended this as a good "Beginners Start Here" guide to understanding some of the completely different populations bunched together under the label "trans"?

"Gender dysphoria is not one thing"
by J. Michael Bailey, Ph.D and Ray Blanchard, Ph.D
Dec 2017

"One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. For example, Bruce Jenner appeared to be a very masculine man, an Olympic athlete who was married to three different women and had six children with them, before becoming Caitlyn Jenner. In contrast, Jazz Jennings, a natal male, was so feminine that she earned a diagnosis of gender identity disorder at the age of four. She is attracted to males. Jenner and Jennings are so different in their presentation and history that it is surprising to us that anyone thinks they have the same condition. Jenner and Jennings are examples of two very different kinds of gender dysphoria that have been scientifically well studied, and have fundamentally different motivations, clinical presentations, and likely causes.

The failure of so many therapists and activists to acknowledge this distinction is disturbing for at least two reasons. First, it suggests they are either ignorant of relevant scientific evidence or are purposefully ignoring it. Second, failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them."

Continued at:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

The expansion of "transgender" seems to be a reverse of the situation with Diabetes, where a better understanding has resulted in identification of different clusters of disease processes that are, to date, still referred to by the umbrella term "Diabetes". With "transgender", the opposite situation has been politically engineered, with different conditions artificially grouped under one heading. There is no medical basis for grouping all these entirely different "human conditions" under the label "trans".

(Diabetes reference for anyone interested:
www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/are-there-actually-5-types-diabetes/ )

The sensitivity around any reference to "mental health" in relation to "trans" is misplaced. It is damaging to people seeking relief from Gender Dysphoria and damaging to people needing psychological support during a gruelling process of medical and surgical "reassignment" procedures. It is also dangerous: thinking that one is the opposite sex can be due to psychosis.

As one Ffionne Orlander (trans person) explained on Twitter when someone tried to say that gender dysphoria was not in the mind (screenshot):

"Everyone knows that dysphoria resides in the big toe . . . or was it the liver?"

Also consider the strikingly different populations sheltering under the "Transgender Umbrella" from the nasty "cis rain" (see screenshot).

According to Stonewall, aiming for "acceptance without exception" for "including (but not limited to)" people who may describe themselves as:

• transgender
• transsexual
• gender-queer (GQ)
• gender-fluid
• non-binary
• gender-variant
• crossdresser
• genderless
• agender
• nongender
• third gender
• two-spirit
• bi-gender
• trans man
• trans woman
• trans masculine
• trans feminine
• neutrois.(a non-binary gender identity that falls under the genderqueer or transgender umbrellas).

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/stw-vision-for-change-2017.pdf

FermatsTheorem Mon 08-Apr-19 17:33:39

"I'd just like to invite everyone to watch the video clip in the opening post. Note in particular, the section from 4.30 on, where Tara talks about the trans umbrella, and the section from 5.30 on, where Tara explicitly explains that the trans umbrella encompasses fetishistic cross dressers, who cross-dress for sexual motivations."

"There it is, straight from the mouth of someone trans themselves, who is delivering a lecture to healthcare professionals on how to deal with trans people in health care settings."

"I think it's important to remember this when people discuss what were formerly single-sex environments, like open plan changing rooms, and hospital wards, and youth hostel dormitories, and women's homeless and domestic violence shelters - which the trans juggernaut wants to repurpose as single-gender. The trans umbrella, according to one leading and highly feted proponent of it, a proponent taking a leading role in training and drawing up guidelines, explicitly includes male bodied cross dressers who cross dress because of sexual fetishes."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc?msgid=86201820

This is the video referred to by FermatsTheorem, starting at 4:26 (shortly after Tara claims that there are 600,000 trans people in the UK):

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 was passed to benefit the tiny number of "homosexual transsexuals" (HSTS) who are about 1% (ONE PERCENT) of the total, estimated "queer" population sheltering under the "Trans Umbrella". (Or less than 1%, if we are to believe Tara.)

With reference to your earlier comment about the requirements around "living as the opposite sex". As far as obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate is concerned, this is for two years, not one.

However, the requirements are based entirely on documentation, eg. change of name on a utilities bill. There is NO requirement to have used spaces or services designated for the opposite sex, neither is there any requirement to modify one's body or physical appearance in any way.

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender.

It could include copies of your:
- passport
- driving licence
- payslips or benefit documents
- utility bills or other documents of an official nature

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time."

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificates-t455

The whole process is based on a Panel considering whether the documentation meets the requirements of the legislation. If anyone says it was degrading to "go before" a Panel, etc. - they are lying!

"LONG, SLOW, DEMEANING, INTRUSIVE AND DISTRESSING 
or SWIFT, PROFESSIONAL AND RESPECTFUL?"
Maya Forstater, March 11 2020

archive.ph/ct4yp

Also by Maya and highly relevant to the OP Question:

"Single sex spaces are a question ofconsent"

a-question-of-consent.net

(Next post "What about Transmen?" - I have exceeded the character limit for a Mumsnet post.)

What about transmen?

These are some questions that I think need careful consideration, about females who identify as males - including those whose "gender identification" has been decided by adults before children were far too young to be able to voice any opinion themselves, eg. 2 years old. (The youngest child referred to the Tavistock GIDS is only three years old.)

First a few considerations.

"Transmen" are female. Adults can be hard to distinguish from males if they have been on testosterone a long time and they would "pass" easily enough as males - as long as they are not naked (see screenshots).

"Successful TransMen: Links and Photos"

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html

Adult transmen (females) are more comfortable using showering and changing facilities for men and, thankfully, are usually considerate enough not to scare women and girls by using the facilities designated for the female sex.

However, the chemical and surgical transformations do not happen overnight.

Parents are encouraged by trans advocacy organisations to identify and affirm their children as "trans" as soon as possible, preferably when they are toddlers.

(Not a completely insane response to very normal variations in child development, of course.)

Parents are encouraged to buy "packers" (mini-penises) to bulk out their little female-boy's knickers, to get them used to the feel of wearing a fake phallus and to identify more closely with the opposite sex. However, they don't pass muster when changing and showering in company.

(Packers are not at all creepy, of course.)

Children are pretty androgenous before puberty and little tomboys can be mistaken for little boys when they are dressed.

It happened to me sometimes between ages 10-12 and frankly, my dear, I didn't give a damn about being "misgendered". The only time it caused a problem is when aged 11 I was unceremoniously thrown out of the Ladies Toilets by the attendant (I thought that was funny) and then thrown into The Gents (that was not at all funny).

Even without that experience, I think that there is another obvious reason to be concerned about calls for "single gender" rather than "single sex" changing and shower facilities - and toilets.

Changing and shower rooms often have rules or guidelines about the age at which boys are expected to use the facilities for males. These respect cultural norms and also show consideration to women and girls who would otherwise be excluded, ie. from mixed-sex spaces due to their religion. The age limit is usually 9 (nine) and 10 year old boys are expected to use facilities for males.

The suggested compromise of "Third Spaces" is roundly dismissed by trans advocacy organisations, which are lobbying for "single gender spaces", ie. mixed-sex.

Transmen are usually only cited as a "Gotcha!" against Gender Critical views, ie. how would women feel about a bearded and apparently male transman (female) in the female-only changing room or showers? If transmen are expected to use female facilities, isn't this an easy way for men to gain access, ie. by claiming to be transmen?

I think that those of us who are Gender Critical need to take these "Gotcha!" points seriously.

One reason is that there are adult, male-presenting transmen (bearded, pumped-up at the gym, etc.) who have expressed their intention to support their "trans siblings" against the nasty "TERFs" by scaring the living daylights out of women and girls by rocking up at female-only changing rooms, etc.

Another reason is to do with safeguarding children. I think that this issue needs to be pointed out in response to the "What about Transmen?" Gotcha!

Anyone arguing that transgirls and transwomen (male) should use facilities designated for women and girls (females) is presumably happy with the corollary that 10 year old transboys (females) should use changing and shower rooms for men and boys?

I have not seen anyone on the TWAW bandwagon suggest that there might be any problem with unaccompanied transboys, ie. females aged from 9/10 upwards, being expected to use the same "single gender" changing rooms and shower rooms as boys and adult men.

=======

Notes:

social affirmation before puberty

• if children are not "affirmed" as the opposite sex then over 80% drop any feeling of being the opposite sex during puberty, if not before.

• In about 80% of cases, puberty is the natural cure for gender dysphoria but only if they are not "socially affirmed" and are also allowed to experience normal puberty.

• For over 80% of "trans kids", "social affirmation" by adults is the cause of children ending up on a medical pathway.

• There is no diagnostic test to identify which children are in the 20% who will remain "persistent" and "insistent" after puberty.

• Any pre-pubescent child who says they feel like they are really the opposite sex: 8 times of 10 they are wrong about how they will feel after puberty.

These children are clearly very different to the girls and young women who present with what has been described as "Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria" (ROGD) post-puberty.

==========

Finally, an excellent interview with Skylar Gwynne by Graham Linehan (aka @Glinner ) that covers a lot of the issues raised in this thread and is very uplifting

"Skylar Gwynn talks about 'The Ride: A Woman's Rebellion'"

"Skylar talks about coming out late in life and fighting the homophobia of the current LGBT movement."

@MoleSmokes

RootyT00t - I am glad you have moved on from accusing people (including me) of being "transphobic" for stating the indisputable fact that it is impossible for anyone to change their biological sex

Has anyone already recommended this as a good "Beginners Start Here" guide to understanding some of the completely different populations bunched together under the label "trans"?

"Gender dysphoria is not one thing"
by J. Michael Bailey, Ph.D and Ray Blanchard, Ph.D
Dec 2017

"One problem with the current mainstream narrative regarding gender dysphoria is that it makes no distinctions among apparently very different kinds of persons. For example, Bruce Jenner appeared to be a very masculine man, an Olympic athlete who was married to three different women and had six children with them, before becoming Caitlyn Jenner. In contrast, Jazz Jennings, a natal male, was so feminine that she earned a diagnosis of gender identity disorder at the age of four. She is attracted to males. Jenner and Jennings are so different in their presentation and history that it is surprising to us that anyone thinks they have the same condition. Jenner and Jennings are examples of two very different kinds of gender dysphoria that have been scientifically well studied, and have fundamentally different motivations, clinical presentations, and likely causes.

The failure of so many therapists and activists to acknowledge this distinction is disturbing for at least two reasons. First, it suggests they are either ignorant of relevant scientific evidence or are purposefully ignoring it. Second, failure to make scientifically valid and fundamental distinctions among different kinds of gender dysphoric persons can only prevent progress toward finding the best approach to helping each. Measles, influenza, and strep throat are all associated with fever. But if we had merely lumped them together as “fever,” we would not have effective treatments for them."

Continued at:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

The expansion of "transgender" seems to be a reverse of the situation with Diabetes, where a better understanding has resulted in identification of different clusters of disease processes that are, to date, still referred to by the umbrella term "Diabetes". With "transgender", the opposite situation has been politically engineered, with different conditions artificially grouped under one heading. There is no medical basis for grouping all these entirely different "human conditions" under the label "trans".

(Diabetes reference for anyone interested:
www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/are-there-actually-5-types-diabetes/ )

The sensitivity around any reference to "mental health" in relation to "trans" is misplaced. It is damaging to people seeking relief from Gender Dysphoria and damaging to people needing psychological support during a gruelling process of medical and surgical "reassignment" procedures. It is also dangerous: thinking that one is the opposite sex can be due to psychosis.

As one Ffionne Orlander (trans person) explained on Twitter when someone tried to say that gender dysphoria was not in the mind (screenshot):

"Everyone knows that dysphoria resides in the big toe . . . or was it the liver?"

Also consider the strikingly different populations sheltering under the "Transgender Umbrella" from the nasty "cis rain" (see screenshot).

According to Stonewall, aiming for "acceptance without exception" for "including (but not limited to)" people who may describe themselves as:

• transgender
• transsexual
• gender-queer (GQ)
• gender-fluid
• non-binary
• gender-variant
• crossdresser
• genderless
• agender
• nongender
• third gender
• two-spirit
• bi-gender
• trans man
• trans woman
• trans masculine
• trans feminine
• neutrois.(a non-binary gender identity that falls under the genderqueer or transgender umbrellas).

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/stw-vision-for-change-2017.pdf

FermatsTheorem Mon 08-Apr-19 17:33:39

"I'd just like to invite everyone to watch the video clip in the opening post. Note in particular, the section from 4.30 on, where Tara talks about the trans umbrella, and the section from 5.30 on, where Tara explicitly explains that the trans umbrella encompasses fetishistic cross dressers, who cross-dress for sexual motivations."

"There it is, straight from the mouth of someone trans themselves, who is delivering a lecture to healthcare professionals on how to deal with trans people in health care settings."

"I think it's important to remember this when people discuss what were formerly single-sex environments, like open plan changing rooms, and hospital wards, and youth hostel dormitories, and women's homeless and domestic violence shelters - which the trans juggernaut wants to repurpose as single-gender. The trans umbrella, according to one leading and highly feted proponent of it, a proponent taking a leading role in training and drawing up guidelines, explicitly includes male bodied cross dressers who cross dress because of sexual fetishes."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385533-Prominant-campaigning-role-of-Tara-Hewitt-NHS-TELI-Social-work-universities-etc?msgid=86201820

This is the video referred to by FermatsTheorem, starting at 4:26 (shortly after Tara claims that there are 600,000 trans people in the UK):

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 was passed to benefit the tiny number of "homosexual transsexuals" (HSTS) who are about 1% (ONE PERCENT) of the total, estimated "queer" population sheltering under the "Trans Umbrella". (Or less than 1%, if we are to believe Tara.)

With reference to your earlier comment about the requirements around "living as the opposite sex". As far as obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate is concerned, this is for two years, not one.

However, the requirements are based entirely on documentation, eg. change of name on a utilities bill. There is NO requirement to have used spaces or services designated for the opposite sex, neither is there any requirement to modify one's body or physical appearance in any way.

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender.

It could include copies of your:
- passport
- driving licence
- payslips or benefit documents
- utility bills or other documents of an official nature

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time."

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificates-t455

The whole process is based on a Panel considering whether the documentation meets the requirements of the legislation. If anyone says it was degrading to "go before" a Panel, etc. - they are lying!

"LONG, SLOW, DEMEANING, INTRUSIVE AND DISTRESSING 
or SWIFT, PROFESSIONAL AND RESPECTFUL?"
Maya Forstater, March 11 2020

archive.ph/ct4yp

Also by Maya and highly relevant to the OP Question:

"Single sex spaces are a question ofconsent"

a-question-of-consent.net

(Next post "What about Transmen?" - I have exceeded the character limit for a Mumsnet post.)

Don't think that comment was needed Mole, really.

By that I mean your opening gambit, Mole, I'm getting through the rest!

@Odense

You might have to read it in small chunks as it will enrage you...!

Yes. I am on my second reading and I’m still fucking furious, 2 chapters in.

@RootyT00t

Fair play for you coming on here and patiently engaging. It has been fascinating reading yours, and everyone’s responses. And obviously thank you to all those who were posing the questions and digging out evidence in response.

Cheers.

I've certainly learned a lot.

I have been going into pubs on my own since perhaps 1968, and I was only ever refused service once, when I got falling-over drunk, which used to get you told to go home and sleep it off

And I as recently as circa 1998 visited a working mens club out of my area, and upon seeing a broad white line 3 feet from the bar, asked what it was for. Told by more than one person, it was for women to never cross as their man should buy the drinks.
Also was unable to join a local working mens club "without a man" that did incense me, why would they lose out on custom because of a lack of a bloke?
The misogyny lives on.

I thought the intention of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 was to make it possible for transsexual people to marry people of the sex they had transitioned from, since homosexual marriage was not legal at that time? That was certainly what I was told back then. And it was a good reason, back then. But now that homosexual marriage is legal that reason seems otiose.

@RootyT00t

By that I mean your opening gambit, Mole, I'm getting through the rest!

Erm! I am genuinely pleased. I had hoped that the at the end would signal that I was not being sarky.

@MoleSmokes my apologies then. I'd assumed it was a sarky smile...