AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 3

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:

“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

yes it is!

@Rooty -- I have get myself off this fascinating thread and back into my family life. But, just have to let you know that it was 1975 in the UK that women were able to open a bank account without including their husband's name. I was then not a lot younger than you perhaps. It was 1982 that as a sex we were able to spend our own money in a pub and not be refused service. Marital rape became illegal in 1992. The contraceptive pill was introduced in 1961 for married women only. So until really quite recently, women in society had very little freedom with money, or freedom from multiple pregnancy. Certainly not access to education. It does give a bit of perspective I think. My own mother and grandmother would have their own stories and would have just shrugged their shoulders at that - they had bigger fish to fry :)

And please also take note of the trans people on this vid. It has quite a few people that Pussyhat mentioned. Many of the points of view we post about here are shared by trans people too. They just have their voices drowned out.

These are the ones I asked you about yesterday Rooty. I asked if they are also transphobic for accepting their biological sex. You said yes they are. I'm not bringing this up again to be goady btw. If you can watch that video and change your mind about them, then I think you may understand a bit more of what we have been saying here.

[quote JoodyBlue]@Rooty -- I have get myself off this fascinating thread and back into my family life. But, just have to let you know that it was 1975 in the UK that women were able to open a bank account without including their husband's name. I was then not a lot younger than you perhaps. It was 1982 that as a sex we were able to spend our own money in a pub and not be refused service. Marital rape became illegal in 1992. The contraceptive pill was introduced in 1961 for married women only. So until really quite recently, women in society had very little freedom with money, or freedom from multiple pregnancy. Certainly not access to education. It does give a bit of perspective I think. My own mother and grandmother would have their own stories and would have just shrugged their shoulders at that - they had bigger fish to fry :)[/quote]
Here in Ireland you just need to have a look at the Mother and Baby home scandals to see how women were treated by society and what little freedoms we had and this was going on up until the 90s

Isn't the problem with the word "health" rather than the word "mental"?

I mean, being gay in itself isn't a matter of health or unhealth; but it is a matter of what goes on in the mind rather than the body, so could be described as mental rather than physical.

It may become a matter of mental health if being gay is regarded as "the love that dare not speak its name" and punished as a crime, leading to anxiety and depression and even suicide (like poor Turing) in a person who is gay, but gayness is not basically a matter of healthy or unhealthy.

Biologically
it is impossible to transition

Mentally
it is possible to live as whatever you choose to be

BUT
Nobody should have the right to impinge on the rights of others
to live as they want to be

the TRAs seem to think that their rights trump all others
they are wrong

My point about anorexics yesterday was also about the affirmation method. We do not affirm anorexics beliefs nor do we affirm white people identifying as black so why are many people so quick to affirm Trans? As you say, there could be many reasons for people to Trans. Why can't this be explored further rather than immediate affirmation?

I would recommend reading the Transwidos threads. They are women totally without voices in the affirmation world.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Isn't the problem with the word "health" rather than the word "mental"?

I mean, being gay in itself isn't a matter of health or unhealth; but it is a matter of what goes on in the mind rather than the body, so could be described as mental rather than physical.

It may become a matter of mental health if being gay is regarded as "the love that dare not speak its name" and punished as a crime, leading to anxiety and depression and even suicide (like poor Turing) in a person who is gay, but gayness is not basically a matter of healthy or unhealthy.

I don't know if I know enough scientifically to agree with that.

Surely being attracted to any sex is a physical thing?

I think we've digressed slightly as we are talking about sexuality here, but....

when I talk about mental health in relation to trans I talk about it in the same way I talk about it in relation to trans - ie, they MAY have mental health related issues such as confidence, anxiety, self-esteem etc.

But being gay isn't a mental health condition. I didn't believe trans was one either, but having read everything on here I'm more confused than when I started.

This video is great though.

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying

Very worrying. How many teens get wrapped up in the sudden acceptance, new friends, attention then feel they can't go back incase they get abuse for 'lying about being trans' or lose the friends and adoration.
These kids aren't given a way out. Which is another reason the affirmation only approach is si dangerous.

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying.

Do these young people, for example, feel they are trans because it is a mental health issue? or is it social media? Or is it the influence of these nutters on twitter and in mermaids and the like? Or is it related to autism, particularly in girls? Or is it a 'feeling'? What is it?

Non of these are allowed to be explored because 'transphobic' and instead of helping them understand their feelings the the trans narrative is being force fed to children as the cure.

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying.

I feel absolutely uncomfortable when I see it compared to things like anorexia. I really do

Why though? Anorexia is about control. Controlling their weight when everything else is out of control.
Children who say they are trans try to assert control over their changing physical bodies for the same reasons.
The same reasons some kids self harm.

The only difference is one is now socially acceptable and celebrated.

coming as someone who as I debated in an earlier post, doesn't spend a lot of time on twitter, doesn't do a lot of research

This is the other thing (not directed personally towards you), so many people say the same things without any evidence.

Things like transwomen being murdered and beaten all the time.
Most at risk.
Fake suicide stats.
JKR being the Devil. Etc etc.

We have looked. We have seen past the sweet kids. We see the bigger picture.

In your post you say you see trans as being about gender, so if its about following a set of imposed sex roll stereotypes of the opposite sex (most of us would be considered non binary) or gender being something with many options to choose,
Why on earth would sex based protections need to be removed? Which is what is being campaigned for.

There is zero need for any laws to separate people by 'gender' because gender no longer means sex. You can't possibly group people by 'gender identity' for healthcare etc. Too many option. It must be kept as sex. Always. Women transmen and non binary females should remain protected under the category of sex.

Transwomen do not need female healthcare or female sex based rights.

@DialSquare

My point about anorexics yesterday was also about the affirmation method. We do not affirm anorexics beliefs nor do we affirm white people identifying as black so why are many people so quick to affirm Trans? As you say, there could be many reasons for people to Trans. Why can't this be explored further rather than immediate affirmation?

I would recommend reading the Transwidos threads. They are women totally without voices in the affirmation world.

I thought about this point Dial. I found it offensive on first look, but when I thought about WHY, I couldn't really pinpoint.

I'll add them on - I am watching through some videos posted upthread.

Yeah, I agree. Having read your post here I once again immediately jumped to BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO. But why? As I say , I don't use twitter, I'm no activist. so why do I automatically feel more strongly about gender or sexuality than I do about the other things you mention?

That I don't know.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying

Very worrying. How many teens get wrapped up in the sudden acceptance, new friends, attention then feel they can't go back incase they get abuse for 'lying about being trans' or lose the friends and adoration.
These kids aren't given a way out. Which is another reason the affirmation only approach is si dangerous.

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying.

Do these young people, for example, feel they are trans because it is a mental health issue? or is it social media? Or is it the influence of these nutters on twitter and in mermaids and the like? Or is it related to autism, particularly in girls? Or is it a 'feeling'? What is it?

Non of these are allowed to be explored because 'transphobic' and instead of helping them understand their feelings the the trans narrative is being force fed to children as the cure.

I didn't know until yesterday about the number of people who don't transition. Weirdly enough, this now creates a situation where people feel "forced" to transition, if you will, to "prove" their status, which is even more worrying.

I feel absolutely uncomfortable when I see it compared to things like anorexia. I really do

Why though? Anorexia is about control. Controlling their weight when everything else is out of control.
Children who say they are trans try to assert control over their changing physical bodies for the same reasons.
The same reasons some kids self harm.

The only difference is one is now socially acceptable and celebrated.

coming as someone who as I debated in an earlier post, doesn't spend a lot of time on twitter, doesn't do a lot of research

This is the other thing (not directed personally towards you), so many people say the same things without any evidence.

Things like transwomen being murdered and beaten all the time.
Most at risk.
Fake suicide stats.
JKR being the Devil. Etc etc.

We have looked. We have seen past the sweet kids. We see the bigger picture.

In your post you say you see trans as being about gender, so if its about following a set of imposed sex roll stereotypes of the opposite sex (most of us would be considered non binary) or gender being something with many options to choose,
Why on earth would sex based protections need to be removed? Which is what is being campaigned for.

There is zero need for any laws to separate people by 'gender' because gender no longer means sex. You can't possibly group people by 'gender identity' for healthcare etc. Too many option. It must be kept as sex. Always. Women transmen and non binary females should remain protected under the category of sex.

Transwomen do not need female healthcare or female sex based rights.

I don't know how to quote single sentences but the only bit I would take issue with is that children become trans to take control. I do still, amongst all my changing beliefs over the last few days, believe that some people ARE born in the wrong bodies and want to be the other sex. I do believe that. Why I might not know, but I don't think its always about control.

@DialSquare

And please also take note of the trans people on this vid. It has quite a few people that Pussyhat mentioned. Many of the points of view we post about here are shared by trans people too. They just have their voices drowned out.

These are the ones I asked you about yesterday Rooty. I asked if they are also transphobic for accepting their biological sex. You said yes they are. I'm not bringing this up again to be goady btw. If you can watch that video and change your mind about them, then I think you may understand a bit more of what we have been saying here.

No worries Dial. I remember that interaction. I think I said something along the lines of that they are minimising other peoples experiences? Something like that. I remember feeling that at the time.

I'm not saying I've had some life changing experience but I am saying that in the last 24 hours I've learned a hell of a lot more than I started with.

Yeah, I'm watching it now.

You are coming from a place of compassion. We all know that. Unfortunately society doesn't extend that compassion to the female sex and until people really look and see the conflict in this, they just assume that it's not hurting anyone to go along with it all. But it is.

@Impatiens

Why do I think it's not just a mental health issue? That's honestly quite hard to word. I feel absolutely uncomfortable when I see it compared to things like anorexia. I really do.

OK I understand your discomfort better now in relation to your feelings about your friend - being gay/lesbian also isn't something that can be 'proved' with any physical test but I would be aghast at it being classed as a MH issue.

His experience has played a massive part in my life. Others have too.

I have several friends who have made attempts on their life because of expectations on them in one way or the other, because they can't be who they are expected to be, because they haven't been accepted, because they will never be happy with who they are.

It affects me.

@DialSquare

You are coming from a place of compassion. We all know that. Unfortunately society doesn't extend that compassion to the female sex and until people really look and see the conflict in this, they just assume that it's not hurting anyone to go along with it all. But it is.

If you see my latest post to Impatiens, you'll see where it comes from.

But, that's emotion and heart, not knowledge, and I'm fast learning this.

[quote JoodyBlue]@Rooty -- I have get myself off this fascinating thread and back into my family life. But, just have to let you know that it was 1975 in the UK that women were able to open a bank account without including their husband's name. I was then not a lot younger than you perhaps. It was 1982 that as a sex we were able to spend our own money in a pub and not be refused service. Marital rape became illegal in 1992. The contraceptive pill was introduced in 1961 for married women only. So until really quite recently, women in society had very little freedom with money, or freedom from multiple pregnancy. Certainly not access to education. It does give a bit of perspective I think. My own mother and grandmother would have their own stories and would have just shrugged their shoulders at that - they had bigger fish to fry :)[/quote]
indeed.

My mum was most put out that she wasn't allowed a mail order catalogue in her own name - my dad's name had to go on things like that until well into the 80's. I have been paid less than a more junior male colleague (apparently he was 'better at negotiating' but then I was told that he needed to support his family).

Even today I know a number of small business owners that would hesitate to employ too many women in their 20s (esp. the newly married ones), not because they are horrid people but because the impact on the business could be too great if too many people are off on maternity at the same time.
The owners need to prioritise the survival of the business, although it doesn't make discrimination ok. I am not judging either way but it is a discrmination that these women can't identify their way out of.

I'm not sure that some women fully grasp the impact on their lives of the rights we currently enjoy being removed.

[quote JoodyBlue]@Rooty -- I have get myself off this fascinating thread and back into my family life. But, just have to let you know that it was 1975 in the UK that women were able to open a bank account without including their husband's name. I was then not a lot younger than you perhaps. It was 1982 that as a sex we were able to spend our own money in a pub and not be refused service. Marital rape became illegal in 1992. The contraceptive pill was introduced in 1961 for married women only. So until really quite recently, women in society had very little freedom with money, or freedom from multiple pregnancy. Certainly not access to education. It does give a bit of perspective I think. My own mother and grandmother would have their own stories and would have just shrugged their shoulders at that - they had bigger fish to fry :)[/quote]
1992?

I nearly said words that will get me banned.

Really?? that late???

Being gay or lesbisn is not an equal comparison.
It's a sexual orientation. It doesn't require medication or altering their body or compelling others to deny their own sex based reality.
Gay rights didn't force people to change their language or demand the removal of any other groups rights.
They didn't tell us that sex was irrelevant.

Transwomen do not need female healthcare or female sex based rights.

And the TWAW ideology says that our needs are no different from theirs because we are the same. This is dangerous.

I have had a couple of conversations with Transwomen (of the TRA variety) recently where have flat out refused to acknowledge that women could have different needs from them or that such discrimination exists. When I've pointed out that existing UK law protects sex based rights, I've been called a liar. When I was able to work I was a lawyer and my job involved helping women enforce these rights against unscrupulous employers.

They are denying reality both in terms of differing needs based on the material reality of the difference in biological sex and in the fact that the law of this land protects us for our biology. This is dangerous.

What is even worse is that the Labour Party the Green Party and the SNP are also stating that Transwomen are Women and that it is bigoted to say otherwise. The impact of this on women and girls (denying the existence of biological differences) is dangerous.

They are taking the Stonewall advice that sex means gender without consideration of the actual legal position. Companies are adopting policies that erase the existence of single sex spaces, it is transphobic now for employees to complain about this. Women could be subject to disciplinary action and ultimately could be dismissed for this.

I do really, really like this Blair White.

R00Ty

I thought about this point Dial. I found it offensive on first look, but when I thought about WHY, I couldn't really pinpoint.

I'll add them on - I am watching through some videos posted upthread.

Yeah, I agree. Having read your post here I once again immediately jumped to BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO. But why? As I say , I don't use twitter, I'm no activist. so why do I automatically feel more strongly about gender or sexuality than I do about the other things you mention?

I've had very similar conversations with my husband trying to explain things - he had a very strong 'gut' reaction to certain points but then when we talked (and talked) and broke it down, we got past the emotional reaction into the facts and the real life impacts on real people - women.

It has taken me months to get my head around the issues here - many things seemed initially to be less of an issue (like the legal and discrimination stuff) until I got a proper understanding of how, if a male person can be included in the category of 'woman', it messes up the comparators that are used to prove discrimination based on Sex. I feel also, that our understanding at the moment of the consequences of some of the issues is just scratching the surface.
To help my head on this, I keep coming back to some basic truths. Bad things are done by bad people all the time but if something particularly bad happens, then steps are usually taken to try and prevent it happening again. For example, what is now the DBS system was introduced after the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley. A bad thing happened and steps were taken to prevent it happening again.

Now we are in the situation where a bad thing has happend (Katie Dolotowski, a male-bodied trans person with a prior conviction for a sex offence was allowed by the escorting social worker to go into the ladies toilets where a 10year old girl was on her own and sexually assaulted her at knife point. In a normal universe, the Scottish government would be horrified and take some steps to try and prevent that happening. But in this world, they are introducing laws to make it easier for that to happen to another 10 year old girl.

That is where we are with this. I wish you well on your journey of discovery.

@RootyT00t

I do really, really like this Blair White.

Blair's great, Rose of Dawn is good to listen to as well

@gardenbird48

R00Ty

I thought about this point Dial. I found it offensive on first look, but when I thought about WHY, I couldn't really pinpoint.

I'll add them on - I am watching through some videos posted upthread.

Yeah, I agree. Having read your post here I once again immediately jumped to BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO. But why? As I say , I don't use twitter, I'm no activist. so why do I automatically feel more strongly about gender or sexuality than I do about the other things you mention?

I've had very similar conversations with my husband trying to explain things - he had a very strong 'gut' reaction to certain points but then when we talked (and talked) and broke it down, we got past the emotional reaction into the facts and the real life impacts on real people - women.

It has taken me months to get my head around the issues here - many things seemed initially to be less of an issue (like the legal and discrimination stuff) until I got a proper understanding of how, if a male person can be included in the category of 'woman', it messes up the comparators that are used to prove discrimination based on Sex. I feel also, that our understanding at the moment of the consequences of some of the issues is just scratching the surface.
To help my head on this, I keep coming back to some basic truths. Bad things are done by bad people all the time but if something particularly bad happens, then steps are usually taken to try and prevent it happening again. For example, what is now the DBS system was introduced after the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by Ian Huntley. A bad thing happened and steps were taken to prevent it happening again.

Now we are in the situation where a bad thing has happend (Katie Dolotowski, a male-bodied trans person with a prior conviction for a sex offence was allowed by the escorting social worker to go into the ladies toilets where a 10year old girl was on her own and sexually assaulted her at knife point. In a normal universe, the Scottish government would be horrified and take some steps to try and prevent that happening. But in this world, they are introducing laws to make it easier for that to happen to another 10 year old girl.

That is where we are with this. I wish you well on your journey of discovery.

Thanks garden.

It's a funny one. I have some idea where these reactions come from, but they're something i need to set aside to learn.

Weirdly enough, I had the same experience aroudn the time of BLM. I didn't get as invested in it, because whereas LGBT is something I've worked with and had personal experience in with friends and so on, I don't come from a very ethnically diverse hometown and I didn't really feel I had anything to say.

But I remember sitting watching the threadsa thinking "but all lives matter" , and having to look into why people saying that was causing the chaos it was.

Similar with this.

I think the point I missed yesterday was that at their core, fundamentally everyone (or most people I'd hope) feel the same as I do about humans and compassion and bla bla bla. But they have the knowledge and understanding of this has unfolded that I didn't.

I do still, amongst all my changing beliefs over the last few days, believe that some people ARE born in the wrong bodies and want to be the other sex. I do believe that. Why I might not know, but I don't think its always about control

There are people with such severe dysphoria that they must alter their bodies to alleviate their mental health. They were called transexual. Many with internalised homophobia. This is all to do with mental health, not accepting their sexed bodies, not being born in the wrong one.

They aren't the same as kids who hit puberty then say they are trans with no previous issue with their sexed bodies. This is where the autism, sexually abused, bullied, same sex attraction comes in.
All the possible reasons you mentioned earlier.

We are no longer permitted to separate these two distinct groups because by doing so it would be show that 'gender' is not some innate feeling we are all supposed to possess.