To not christen my son

[justlonelystars]

Posted here for traffic!

My DH is catholic and I am an atheist. Although we’ve agreed to raise our DS to make his own mind up about religion my DH would like to christen our DS (catholic christening) for two reasons

1. It would mean a lot to him and his family
2. There is a v prestigious catholic school near our house and being christened might help DS chances to get in to this school

Now here’s my issue - and I mean no offence to anyone here who is catholic. I bloody hate the Catholic Church and everything it stands for. But I’m worried that I am indulging my own prejudices and opinions at the expense of opportunities for my DS (e.g. the school).

So as not to massively drip feed, my DH is not a practising catholic, hasn’t stepped foot in a church since I met him, but believes in god and identifies as catholic. He is pretty laid back and agreed to a non religious ceremony for our wedding and would also let me have my own way on the christening (or lack of). However, it’s the issue above that’s worrying me - am I letting my own opinions get in the way of what’s best for DS?

AIBU - yes christen him
AINBU - nah don’t do it!

In reality most parents do what they can to get their children in to decent schools ,Mumsnet may hand wring over it but Mumsnet isn't real life.

2. There is a v prestigious catholic school near our house and being christened might help DS chances to get in to this school

Ah yes, the "I hate everything about the Catholic Church... except their schools. And I'll lie, dissemble and cheat to get my kid admitted to one."

Never gets old.

It's discriminating against children because of what their parents believe (or pretend to believe).

Only if that is the only school available.

I do agree that religious schools should not receive state funding, and that state funding should not be applied to teach any particular faith as the "right" one, as is strictly the case in mainstream schools in England, which are required to adhere to the teachings of the Church of England to a greater or lesser extent. But as things stand now, I think it completely reasonable for an oversubscribed Catholic school to give preference to Catholic children under the current arrangements.

[quote x2boys]@AgeLikeWine how long is it since you left school ? I can assure you my son's Catholic school is absolutely not as you describe ,my own Catholic school in the 70,s and 80,s were admittedly strict ,but times move on and change .[/quote]
I went to school in the 1980s. I’m glad to hear that catholic education has moved with the times to some extent, but the purpose of my post was to encourage OP, or any other secular parent seriously considering catholic education for their children, to think very carefully about the ‘catholic’ bit, and to understand exactly what it means for their child.

I forgot to mention the ‘sanctity of human life’ aspect of catholic education. Anti-abortion brainwashing was relentless. Children were taught that abortion was a ‘mortal sin’ in all cases, including rape. The school had a large ‘Justice & Peace Group’, comprised of priests, nuns, teachers and pupils. The primary purpose of this group was anti-abortion campaigning & activism both inside and outside school.

I'm atheist/not bothered. I didn't baptise DD but then DH is also not bothered. My friend who is CofE and has had her kids christened is horrified for us. I said to her that my mum got me christened purely out of family tradition and her mum, my Gran, only took communion because she liked the wafers (she was never confirmed). My brother never christened his children either.

Interesting though, about the schools. All the primaries where I grew up were run by the CofE so we had no choice. I went to a non-denom secondary but only because my primary was a feeder school. In London you have to go to church and be on the vicar's Christmas card list to get into a faith school. Again, we couldn't be bothered, and DD has attended non-denomination schools. She doing well.

My husband once agreed to be his friends daughters godfather even though there was a lack of belief all round (again, in London) so that she could get into a faith school. She ended up in a non-denomination primary . But DH was legally a guardian in case something happened to her parents (she's an adult now).

I don't think you should go to a faith school unless a) there is no choice b) you believe in God. My personal opinion.

@warmeduppizza

You do realise you don’t ‘christen your son’. You ask for your son to be christened. During that conversation, any RC priest worth his salt would soon notice the level of your understanding and commitment, and might ask you to reconsider.

Well, she COULD christen her son. DIY job over the kitchen sink.

Validity of baptism isn't dependent on the person performing the ceremony. Which is just as well, otherwise a goodly few Catholics should consider themselves fucked.

Must have been dreadful @AgeLikeWine but things a very different now my son's RE teacher is Muslim they are taught about all religions as per national curriculum,and able to question beleifes and as I said he himself has decided he's atheist so clearly not brainwashed.

It sounds like it would mean a lot to DH and his family so I would agree to Christening in these circumstances.

I was raised RC and am now an atheist. I’d have a child baptised to improve their chances of getting into the school. You’d need to do it when they’re a baby as some Catholic schools look at the date of baptism - Catholics baptise ASAP, so a child only baptised at aged 4 to get into the school stands out.

Sending him to a catholic school doesn’t sound like letting him make up his own mind to me? 🤷‍♀️

I would do it. As a parent it is important you send your child to the best school that you can offer. There is plenty of people that leave catholic schools that turn out none practicing catholics or even atheists. Also by completely opting out of religion when it comes to your son you are in a way reinforcing your own views onto him in a way, if you still want to do that it is totally your choice just don't think that brining him up completely separated of all religion is some form of neutrality.

YANBU. If you're not religious and your DH is relaxed about whether or not your child gets christened, don't christen them.

And you have a while until you have to start thinking about schools. ("prestigious" doesn't necessarily mean it will be right for your child.) I don't see the point of sending them to a religious school if you don't want them to be indoctrinated. There are lots of good schools - I would rather move than send my child to a religious school. (In fact, this was the situation I was in, but fortunately, my child got allocated another local school which, although a bit further away, I am happier with than the nearby church school.)

@Butchyrestingface You cannot baptise your child into the Roman Catholic church without involvement of the Roman Catholic church.
I do agree that the validity of baptism doesn't depend on the merits or weaknesses of the individual priest. It does however depend on the validity of their orders.
If people decide to allow a particular denomination to affect their life choices or opportunities, they should operate within the framework of that denomination, or at least seek to understand it. Out of respect for that denomination and out of self respect.

If you hate the catholic church (and given what a bunch of evil bastards they are, I don't blame you) why would you ever consider sending you kid to a catholic school?

We had a similar dilemma OP. I (a dad) was raised Catholic but have been atheist since my teens. The rest of my family are “culturally catholic” is that makes sense. Getting baptised is just a thing you do.

My wife was baptised Catholic as a baby, but is also atheist. Her family are all non-religious.

We decided not to get our kids baptised at all. Religion is not a part of our lives.

Very minor surprise and disappointment from my parents, but nothing major.

There is a very good Catholic school nearby, but fuck that. I don’t believe in force-feeding religion to kids. We’ll go with a “normal” school.

Stick to your guns. Don’t get them baptised/christened.

@Butchyrestingface You cannot baptise your child into the Roman Catholic church without involvement of the Roman Catholic church.

My understanding is that 'layman' baptism IS sufficient for this purpose (although I was told it was in cases of extremis). But happy to see something that proves me wrong.

I agree with the rest of your post, although I think I expressed my views get tae fuck, OP a bit less delicately upthread.

@justlonelystars

I would Christen him. Have to say, I struggle to fathom how someone who is a Catholic can make a life with, marry, and have children with someone who is an atheist.

I would certainly not be having my husband telling me I can't Christen my child.

I would Christen him. Have to say, I struggle to fathom how someone who is a Catholic can make a life with, marry, and have children with someone who is an atheist.

Is it just atheists that your can't understand Catholics marrying? What about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or even - in the words of my friend's mum - "worse than a Protestant - a lapsed Catholic"?

The discussion about baptism should really happen before the couple decide to have children (assuming pregnancy was planned).

Non delicate expressions are fine by me, @Butchyrestingface
I'm not a Catholic, I just feel strongly about respecting people's beliefs and practices. Using a priest to perform a sacrament without intending to take it seriously grinds my gears.
And yes, in extremis you can baptise your infant in a McDonalds toilet if need be. But not just because you fancy it (it takes all sorts...).

Don't do it. Let the good school places go to people who care.

If you don't believe in God and the Catholic teachings, why on earth would you make a commitment to bring your child up in those teachings? I will not even go to christenings because the whole wording of the service "renouncing the devil" I find horrific in relation to tiny children who have no knowledge or consent. Have some integrity! There is nothing - family, tradition, schooling - that overrides the serious of what you are saying in the baptism service.

I find it utterly bizarre that religion still exists in this day and age.

If people came up with the idea now, they'd be laughed off daytime TV, much the same as flat-earthers and scientologists.

I don't think it's fair to christen children.

HOWEVER, surely you knew about this before you married and had children with your DH?

If it's just about having a party and celebrating the birth of the child, go for a civil naming ceremony, but I fear your DH will be facing a lot of pressure from believers in his family.

’I will not even go to christenings because the whole wording of the service "renouncing the devil"’

If you’re an atheist those are just words. If you’re a left- wing atheist you could sub in ‘the Daily Mail’ in your head to achieve the necessary gravitas.

I will not even go to christenings because the whole wording of the service "renouncing the devil" I find horrific in relation to tiny children who have no knowledge or consent.

This is a new one on me.

What would you prefer - an open invitation to St Nick to pop round for a Sunday roast*?

*Roast as in din-dins.

I'm atheist and with a few drinks inside me can work up a good level of anti theism. I didn't baptise my children because I don't believe in any of the stuff that comes with it. I find the concept of children being born full of sin hideous and repellent and damaging. I can quite understand why people would be angered about it. But I also know and love people who are religious, very much so, one of my closest friends is a CofE minister ad another reason I wouldn't baptise my kids for something like a chance at a better school place or to keep my family happy is that to people like my friend, it is a sacrament. It is a meaningful, beautiful, special and wonderful thing, a really important part of the child's relationship with god. It would feel so wrong to baptise without belief.