To use CIO with naps too?

[Soitis83]

DS is 9 months old, he sleeps so well at night. We put him in his cot, he cried for maybe 20/30 minutes on and off, then he sleeps all night. But naps, not so much. He can go over an hour of crying. He sleeps well if I leave my hand in the cot but doesn't stay asleep for longer than half and hour. Do I just leave him to cry ? I know some people arr dead against it, I am to an extent but I'm also open to being proved wrong. I don't need the science, believe me I've googled it all. I just need other mums who have done the same thing and whether it worked or didn't work for them???

@Soitis83
Don't listen to the haters!! FTM here too and I use CIO. NOTHING else seems to work for night sleep. Funnily enuf DS was a good napper - he used to fall asleep playing haha. Initially DS used to cry for upto an hour for night sleep but now within 5 mins of moaning he's off to sleep.
I have used CIP for naps in the past too.
For all the haters, you lot are talking nonsense. studies have shown no psychological difference between babies who were CIO'ed to sleep and others. And it's a centuries old method used by lots of people including South American tribes.
OP u do what u need to do to keep itself and baby healthy.

It's your choice OP (and others) to go for CC/CIO just do it with your eyes wide open - you're doing it for your benefit, not to teach your child anything 'healthy'.
If it works - happy days and no I don't think your child will be mentally scarred for life by it. There are many other factors and elements in parenting.

I wouldn't do it because I just don't feel it is right. I don't have to question myself anyway, my 3 oldest children are now 3, 6 and 9 and sleep very well (I cuddle my 3yrs old to sleep still and he tends to join me in bed at some point but other than that its straightforward) and my youngest (6months old) has got certain needs that mean she couldn't be left to cry in any event, whether I agreed with it or not, it would definitely harm her significantly so she is pretty much always being held and next to me at night. Thankfully it's not that different to what I did with my other children so it wasn't hard to adjust.
Some of my relatives did versions of CIO/CC with their kids and I always found it very distressing to hear/watch. Not my thing at all.

[quote BigMomma164]@Soitis83
Don't listen to the haters!! FTM here too and I use CIO. NOTHING else seems to work for night sleep. Funnily enuf DS was a good napper - he used to fall asleep playing haha. Initially DS used to cry for upto an hour for night sleep but now within 5 mins of moaning he's off to sleep.
I have used CIP for naps in the past too.
For all the haters, you lot are talking nonsense. studies have shown no psychological difference between babies who were CIO'ed to sleep and others. And it's a centuries old method used by lots of people including South American tribes.
OP u do what u need to do to keep itself and baby healthy.[/quote]
What age did you start?
Leaving a tiny baby to scream for an hour seems ridiculous.
My firstborn had acid reflux that wasn't easy to spot at first. If I'd let them scream for an hour in agony I'd have been neglectful.

I know people say there's no long lasting damage but I can't see how making a conscious decision to leave a baby, put headphones in, and various other tips, is ok. It's really not.

@PerspicaciousGreen

YANBU at all. Our life improved so much for both our children when we did CIO - for bedtime first, then later on naps. Our first DS particularly was absolutely knackered and miserable and gripey all the time. Then we did CIO and got him on a proper nap routine and he was SO much happier, the little dark circles under his eyes went away.

That said, naps are hard for CIO. It's pretty ridiculous for them to cry for longer than they nap! And if you've not good a good nap routine already, it's hard ot know when to put them down. I highly highly recommend the book Precious Little Sleep for lots of advice on all sorts of sleep issues which lays out all the options for you to choose from. It's very realistic and open-minded and not a patented method at all.

Our second, we did CIO for naps AFTER we'd established a rock solid routine of nap timings - 9am, 12pm, 3pm, at the time. She slept brilliantly in the sling for them but was just starting to get way too heavy and I couldn't be jiggling around to white noise for three hours a day with another one to look after! So I was absolutely certain that I was putting her down when she was correctly tired, iyswim. If he goes down at the same time every day already that's fine, or if he naps well in the buggy you could walk him round til you've got a good sense of timings.

It is hard to do CIO with naps in practice, but in principle it can be done and I see no problem with it. You'll get lots of people telling you they never let their babies cry for even a minute ever, but either:
a) They are lying
b) They can't remember from being too sleep-deprived!
c) They had magical unicorn babies
d) They had nothing else to do and spent literally the whole day holding their babies and catering to their every whim (and are also somehow psychic and able to tell what those whims were)

You make sure you've taken care of all their physical needs, give them a cuddle and a story, then leave them to get on with it. At that age, though, I'd be thinking about putting a cuddly toy in the cot with them to play with until they drop off.

Sleep is the #1 priority in our house (theirs and mine!) and I don't care how we get it. Yes, I'm a heartless cow, but I don't think I would have been doing mine any favours to let them not nap.

By the way, DD is now 11 months old and has only just stopped a few weeks ago her "evening yowl", as we call it. Just like yours, a bit of a cry before sleeping through the night and waking up happy as Larry.

There is a difference between a baby crying in your arms, and a baby who is left to cry in a room alone. The latter baby is scared. The former one is unhappy, but won't be traumatised as you are there to comfort them.

My daughter cried very little, and the longest she ever cried for was half an hour once when I really couldn't take nursing her any longer (she'd been going for hours at that point) and I just held her while she cried. Then I felt able to feed her again and she was fine.

Some babies cry more than others, even in the presence of a loving parent. But generally, responsive parenting minimises crying.

Even if it doesn't though, you may not see the differing results of this approach and just abandoning them till it's too late.

@rosiejaune I tend to find its people who had babies that ‘cry very little’, as you said yours did, that usually think that’s down to their “good” or responsive parenting, rather than the type of baby they had. As in, I responsive parent so therefore my baby doesn’t cry.

Some babies just cry no matter what you do. Some babies respond differently to responsive parenting or CIO. Mine was Months of just screaming for no reason, despite breastfeeding, rocking, jigging, all the tricks in the book. She would scream and thrash against my chest, refuse to feed, slept less than 8 hours in total a day and was chronically wired and overtired. I tried everything. it was soul destroying.

In desperation one night I put her down and left the room and she self settled. Then 1-2 nights of leaving her to cry for a bit, rather than picking her up every whimper, and she was like a different child. Happy, started sleeping properly and stopped screaming so much. For us, 1-2 days of CIO actually resulted in dramatically less crying over all.

I think some parents just don’t understand in some cases, CIO can actually be helpful, and just because their babies wouldn’t respond well doesn’t mean others do. Just like I accept attachment parenting works well for some babies. Every baby is different and it’s ok to treat them as such.

If you've googled the science why the fuck are you leaving a baby to cry for that long.

Unbelievable.

@Gobbycop because “the science” has NOT shown any evidence of harm?

If you have any evidenced based data, please share it here. The often quoted “learned helplessness” is a theory - not fact- and the guy who came up with it - Dr Sears, is essentially an anti vaxxer. Sorry but I don’t have much faith in his brand of “science”.

@Showers3

“Comfort themselves” and “self soothing” - neurological impossibility at that age and most certainly NOT “important for their development” - on the contrary actually - these are the kids are often the ones I end up treating in CAMHS years down the line.

@Showers3 - can I ask you to please elaborate further? I am considering sleep training my baby once she hits five months but am struggling to find proper information about potential harms. Do you know for sure that some of your young people were sleep trained? How does it effect them?

[quote Scrunchies]@rosiejaune I tend to find its people who had babies that ‘cry very little’, as you said yours did, that usually think that’s down to their “good” or responsive parenting, rather than the type of baby they had. As in, I responsive parent so therefore my baby doesn’t cry.

Some babies just cry no matter what you do. Some babies respond differently to responsive parenting or CIO. Mine was Months of just screaming for no reason, despite breastfeeding, rocking, jigging, all the tricks in the book. She would scream and thrash against my chest, refuse to feed, slept less than 8 hours in total a day and was chronically wired and overtired. I tried everything. it was soul destroying.

In desperation one night I put her down and left the room and she self settled. Then 1-2 nights of leaving her to cry for a bit, rather than picking her up every whimper, and she was like a different child. Happy, started sleeping properly and stopped screaming so much. For us, 1-2 days of CIO actually resulted in dramatically less crying over all.

I think some parents just don’t understand in some cases, CIO can actually be helpful, and just because their babies wouldn’t respond well doesn’t mean others do. Just like I accept attachment parenting works well for some babies. Every baby is different and it’s ok to treat them as such.[/quote]
I did say: "Some babies cry more than others, even in the presence of a loving parent. But generally, responsive parenting minimises crying."

Responsive parenting in your case meant leaving her alone. There was probably a middle ground which would have allowed her to not be over-stimulated without entirely leaving her, but responsive doesn't always mean holding them.

I think it's very hard to have a rational debate about sleep training because the science is inconclusive and you can find evidence on both sides.

Ultimately you either believe that leaving a baby to cry alone is traumatising or you don't. If you don't, then it's a very logical solution to sleepless nights and people who don't use it are creating a rod for their own back. If you do, then you'd do anything rather than leave your baby crying alone wondering why you won't come for them.

It's made worse by the guilt. When my twins were little and I was waking at least hourly (sometimes 20 minutes) every night I know I would have been a better mum during the day if I'd done cio but to me it just wasn't an option.

You've got some good advice here (buried among the outrage!). Just wanted to say take it easy on yourself and ignore the cruel comments. The same people who feel "heartbroken" for a baby who cries never seem to extend the same empathy to a struggling new mother.

CIO is cruel but that's obviously not what you're doing. Plus there's a difference between fussing-type crying and hysterical upset which most mothers recognise and respond to accordingly. So if he's fussing and you're checking on him at regular intervals and soothing him with your voice and touch, that's absolutely not damaging. Some people are really uncomfortable with any crying and try to stop it at all costs. To me that's really unhealthy and can be quite disrespectful to a child as they grow. It's ok for 9 month old babies to cry and fuss. It's ok for you not to pick them up every time they do so. Sleep is incredibly important and needs to be prioritised. As a single parent even more so.

I really recommend Janet Lansbury for all things baby/toddler related. Respectful parenting that takes both the child's needs and the mother's into consideration - as it should be.

I hope you get sorted soon

Lots of people mixing up CIO with other things like CC.

Allowing a baby to cry while going in every couple of minutes to soothe them isn’t CIO.
CIO is basically leaving your baby to scream, alone, until they pass out with exhaustion. And it is essentially child abuse in my opinion.

@Bagamoyo1 it basically is the same though, it's an extended period of crying. In a way coming and going in and out might be worse, as you are ignoring their needs multiple times, rather than just leaving once.

He obviously doesn't want to nap during the day. CIO is horrible and will lead to problems down the line, he will start to reaslise no one will answer when he is in distress so will stop crying yes but will think that applies to everything and won't reach out for support. It is emotionally damaging.

@Soitis83 💐💐💐 a big hug 🤗 and a piece of cake 🍰

Terribly sorry but I have no advice, just wanted to let you know there are people here (at least one!) who don’t think you are a bad mum.

Mumsnet AIBU is not a good place for advice. Have you tried the baby board.
Give your baby a hug and think about something amazing you would love to do. Whether it’s being on the beach or sleeping through a WHOLE night ☺️💐

@minniemango

Leaving a baby to cry for 30 minutes or an hour sounds absolutely bizarre to me. I don't know what to suggest.

Yep.

I am amazed you can stand it
If my dog barks or whines for more than 60 secs and I crack!

To clarify I just cant stand the noise more than anything else, it makes me upset

Here's what happens with sleep training

Night 1: this isn't what I'm used to I don't like it I want to go to sleep with cuddles zzzz

Night 2: not this again, I don't like it, oh ok then zzzz

Night 3: how annoying, I used to go to sleep a different way, oh ok then zzz

Night 4: oh look my cot, I am a bit tired zzz

Night 5: hurray! Cosy cot, I'm sleepy zzzz

People slamming sleep training don't get that it's a means to an end. It's like how vaccination isn't nice but it's worth it. Sometimes you need sleep badly enough that it's worth a couple of nights of your baby going to sleep in a less than nice way to change it.

Once you're through the first bit, bedtimes and nights are better for both you and the baby, daytimes too because you're not so tired. We don't ask have the ability or the circumstances to make it through years of sleep deprivation.

It's not about being horrible to babies in perpetuity! We're adaptable creatures, they learn to go to sleep a different way.

I don't think sleep training is for everyone but if the alternative is depression, resentment, driving while exhausted, not enjoying your baby, struggling at work - it's sometimes the best option.

Since sleeping through the night he has hit so many developmental milestones. He also goes in for naps now and is happy in his cot. If he falls over, he cries and I comfort him, so he knows mummy is there for him. He now knows bedtime means sleep time and hes SO much happier for it (as am I!)
Best decision I ever made.
I know a lot of mums hate the idea of it and believe me, I get it! I did too. He went from waking every 30 minutes/1hr and moody in the day, to sleeping through to happy and settled!

Please decline further "support" from your HV, she isn't doing you or your child any good. Pick your baby up, cuddle them, you've done nothing wrong. Give yourself a cuddle too x

@Soitis83 good for you. It’s life changing isn’t it? Ignore the posters who call you a bad mum - you’ll see for yourself how much happier you both are when you’ve slept/ rested, and that’s all the proof you need that it was the right decision x

@Scrunchies its pretty easy to ignore them now I see what an amazing difference it has made! Parenting starts from birth and its not always easy! I'm SO glad I listened and allowed my son to teach himself how to settle himself to sleep, easy my best decision yet :) x

Hi I just wanted to give some support to the op
We do control crying as I understand rocking feeding or cuddling to sleep does not work for us she doesn't want to be cuddle or rocked or feed she wants to sleep!. Some of these responses r terrible and with what is going on in the world atm a little support would not go a miss.
She came on hear for help and not to be slated.
Letting ur child cry doesn't mean u don't love and it is not abandaning them. If u go to the toilet and they start to cry is that abandoning them to.?
You are not a bad mother u r a brilliant one and I would say to the other people if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything ( sorry for the spelling i am very dyslexic) I know it has been a while from the original post but I dont hope u see this xxx