To use CIO with naps too?

[Soitis83]

DS is 9 months old, he sleeps so well at night. We put him in his cot, he cried for maybe 20/30 minutes on and off, then he sleeps all night. But naps, not so much. He can go over an hour of crying. He sleeps well if I leave my hand in the cot but doesn't stay asleep for longer than half and hour. Do I just leave him to cry ? I know some people arr dead against it, I am to an extent but I'm also open to being proved wrong. I don't need the science, believe me I've googled it all. I just need other mums who have done the same thing and whether it worked or didn't work for them???

@minipie slept all night from 6 weeks??? Wow!! what was her secret? Did you ask?

Cuddling and feeding to sleep is the biological norm. Of course it is. You don't see mother orangutans leaving their infants in a different part of the forest to sleep. They're with them all the time.

[quote JRUIN]@minipie slept all night from 6 weeks??? Wow!! what was her secret? Did you ask?[/quote]
No, I was too gobsmacked! And jealous!!

Soltis apologies, I missed that.

@Soitis83 don't get me wrong I know how hard mothering can be, but I think leaving a child to cry for hours is pretty negligent yes.

@Soitis83 What is he like prior to you putting him down for a nap? Does he sleep in a dark room with white noise or anything else?

With my two they were quite predictable for naps during the day, but sometimes the length would vary.

I can understand why people are passionate about this, for some it doesn't work and others it does. I don't judge those who don't do CIO but I don't equate it to abuse!

@Sheleg right, but they don't do that until they're 2/3 years old. Its for a very short amount of time. I did that for a 9 months and its no longer working. He was waking too often and was groggy and miserable throughout the day because of it. So HV said to try this, I took her professional opinion and I'm glad I did.
I fully get why people don't do it. I said I never would, I couldn't bare leaving him and the sound of his crying is soul destroying. But I ran out of options. With feeding and cuddling to sleep he was getting no sleep. It was torture.
@JRUIN youre entitled to your opinion but I definitely disagree. I'm teaching him a better, healthier way of sleeping.

@minipie well if you're still in touch with said friend could you please ask for her advice, as I now look after my grandson while his parents work and he is a bugger at nap/bed time!

@Elmo311 thats definitely one of the problems I've discovered, I don't have black out curtains so some light gets through! He has white noise though. Do you think the light coming through would be preventing him from falling asleep? I'm going to stick my duvet up over the curtain rail tomorrow I think..
I don't judge people who don't use it. In fact I'm slightly jealous they don't feel they have to do it, its just I do. And its working. Some parents swear by it some hate it and tell you you're neglecting your child.

My DS is 8 months old and we used CC (Ferber Method) with him at 6 months. He had been waking every 5-45 minutes and did not nap. Since using Ferber, he sleeps from 7-11, has a bottle then 11-4, has a bottle, then 4-8. After a couple weeks of being settled at night, his naps started getting much better on their own. I would typically leave him in his from for 15 minutes for a nap and if he didn't fall asleep, I'd just get him up and try again later.

Mumsnet can be horrendous to new mothers. I started a Sleep thread around breaking point with my DS, and it honestly reduced me to tears and made me feel like a horrible parent for needing sleep myself. I hope this thread hasn't been as hurtful to you, because it is such a vulnerable time.

Try reading the Ferber Method if you are going to persevere with CC. It really helps you understand why your baby is doing what he's doing.

Good luck!

Controlled crying is not child abuse.
Neglect is when a parent cannot care properly for their child. A severely sleep deprived parent, is incapable of creating the nurturing environment a baby needs. If CC is helping baby sleep, therefore not being upset In the day, and mum is more able for it - it's the logical best thing for all involved. Or would you prefer a baby who is screaming due to being overtired, because they weren't in a routine because their mum was accused of child abuse. I suppose the inconsolable over tired screaming is fine though? As long as baby is being held. Trying to make sure they sleep which would stop the utter distress in the day is kinder, but most people on here are utter nutters.
And the user who compared it to beating a child is a complete fruit loop.
Your baby will not be emotionally scarred op. He probably will be more content for being less tired though!
Unless you own a home, are married, work full time, are slim, breastfeed, only eat organic, and have your baby glued to you - you'll never be right on mumsnet

@Soitis83

Actually, orangutan parental care is pretty extensive and not for a brief time! The kind carry them for 1-2 years and they sleep together in the same nest.

After the age of 2, sometimes they hold hands with their children, some continue to carry them until they are 5. They breastfed then until about the age of 8 and sleep in the same tree until about the age of 10. Mums tend to have an after gap of about 8 years to facilitate this.

I'm of the firm belief that babies need to feel secure and that that security that you go out of your way to give them does pay off in the end, but @Soitis83 I suppose we will just have to agree to differ. I hope that you manage to get some some good advise on here and are able to get your little one's sleep pattern sorted soon x

@MooseBreath thank you I've definitely learned a lot when it comes to terminology so I know what I'm researching now. I'll look into ferber for sure. So glad you're getting those long stretches of sleep now, I bet you feel so much better! Thats really reassuring to know that his naps have got better after a while of good night sleeping. I think two weeks feels like forever in these circumstances but I've just got to remind myself how worth it it will be.
Bless you, sorry you had that experience. Some people can be so cruel. No I'm fine. I wobbled when I first started reading the replies as I thought I was the world's worst mother. But then a couple of posters said some sensible, helpful things with experience and advice and I felt soo much better. Thanks for your post

@bitliketonyhares well I do not fit most of that criteria so I guess I really don't belong here! I agree with you though. My mother wrapped me in bubble wrap, never let me cry etc and I'm an anxious mess. She's passed away now which oddly has made me less anxious as I don't have my safety net so I've had to grow thicker skin! But I don't want to give my boy what my mum (accidentally) gave me!

@Babyboomtastic really? Thats super interesting. Making me want to watch a david Attenborough programme! But we aren't monkeys in the wild, but I see where you're coming from. If it works for some thats absolutely fine, do what works and gets you through these tough stages. This is definitely working for us though. Hes so much happier for it, as am I!
@JRUIN thank you I appreciate that. I've got some good advice and I intend on taking it. If his naps get sorted soon I'll be beyond happy! X

Sorry I’m with the majority of other posters just cuddle. I think CIO is ridiculous and don’t get why HV advise it. There’s loads of scientific data which suggests it’s not beneficial to either parent or child. Have you read the gentle sleep book? I found that really helpful and has helped us see a steady improvement in sleep and naps. Sending as it’s difficult hearing people say they don’t agree. But maybe this is the point to use it to make positive change.

There's a chapter in the Emily Oster book cribsheet that goes over evidence on sleep training/controlled crying. Take a look, it concludes there's no evidence it's harmful.

Where children are left a lot, like Romanian orphanage style never being responded to, that obviously has an affect. Being left for ten minutes with a parent nearby and popping in every now and then is completely different.

It's all about sleep cues, the baby is learning to associate the bedtime routine, cot and toys etc with sleep instead of milk and cuddles.

The other thing people miss out on these discussions is the impact of sleep deprivation on parents, I for one am a better parent when I've had more sleep.

But if you've struggled through years of rocking etc then you've got a vested interest in thinking it's necessary.

@JollyJlly is there scientific data? I’ve never been able to find any so would be interested if you could back up your claim. People are grossly misinformed about CIO and often cite ‘learned helplessness’ which is a OPINION from the attachment parenting camp. It is NOT proven. There is, to my knowledge, no evidence base of harm.

Opinion pieces and comments in’psychology today’ don’t count- I’m talking about actual data/trials.

Its not hard hearing people disagree with me, I learn a lot from people with opposing views! It's the nastyness that made me down, but I'm fine now. I was sleep deprived. But thank you, I love it when someone who doesn't agree with you tells you respectfully.

For anyone who cares, he slept through last night with minimal crying before he slept, he seemed almost happy to get in bed just wasn't when I left. I went it only once before he fell asleep so this is working. Those people who told me tonrouse him slightly at 25 minutes are now officially my heros, I got an hour and a half out of him in the buggy. Hes napping now too and plan to do the same thing. Hes been so happy and active today, not groggy or moany in the slightest. I'm so pleased! Thank you to everyone for your advice.

And you're right, there's no scientific link to cio or cc and any damage. If there was I would still be going insane from sleep deprivation.

Amazing 🙌

@sheleg re mother orangutans not leaving their babies - where to start? You never left your baby briefly in a room where you couldn't see them? Like when they were sleeping in a pram or with another carer?

Animal behaviour can be used to justify anything, and we don't have predators like snakes and tigers in our houses.

Orangutans also often resort to 'forced mating', does that mean rape is natural and right in humans? Males often fight over who gets to mate with a female in heat, does that mean that is natural in humans?

We're not bloody orangutans. Yes we're primates with natural instincts, but this kind of thing pisses me off.

I've never had a problem with allowing a baby to self settle or to cry. I always put my son down and left him for up to 10 minutes to settle down. If there was nothing wrong he would fall asleep within that time. I did that for sleeps in the day and at night. Yes he sometimes cried for a few minutes but I've never been one for not being able to let a baby cry for a few minutes. There's no need to rush straight there the second they cry IMO. I don't think cry it out or controlled crying is wrong at all, and certainly not child abuse as has been suggested on here in the past. My son has self settled from birth and slept through from 3 months. However I would NEVER EVER have left him crying for longer than 10 minutes. After that time if he hadn't settled I'd go back in and see what was wrong.
20/30 minutes is wrong and way too long to leave a baby to cry.

@happymummy12345

I genuinely don't understand how you can asserr so confidently that 10 minutes is fine but 20/30 minutes is "wrong and way too long". I mean I'm clear on my position, if my young baby is crying it's my job to do something about it. That's why the baby is crying, because it needs me to do something. Ok I might be in the shower or sorting out an older child or frying an egg or whatever and it'll take me a few minutes - if they're somewhere safe and secure then I'm not going to beat myself up about that. But why would I CHOOSE to withhold comfort from my baby when I don't have to? I just don't understand that at all.

And as I say I am not talking from the position of having had an easy baby. I was SO sleep deprived. Like HORRIBLY. For over a year. It was not easy. But being tired didn't make me a shitty parent during the day, as so many here seem desperate to imply. It made me bloody tired. But I still functioned, took my baby to activities, played with her and spoke to her all the time, gave her my focus. Because that was my job too.

Nor did her dodgy sleep patterns impact her wellbeing, as so many others seek to imply here. She was walking at 10 months, talking at a year, she has been consistently ahead of her milestones - she slept like shit, but she still got enough sleep - just in tiny chunks!

I understand everyone has their limits. Mine was restarting work and my mother dying in the same week. Around that period I lost the ability to manage and cope and night weaned her so my partner could share night wakings. She was around 18 months at that point. Luckily for me it made her sleep a lot better. She cried a lot about the weaning, but I held her while she cried (or my partner did). I couldn't possibly have just left her in her cot crying alone.

None of this makes me a martyr or a "better mother". Maybe it makes me a mammal, "less evolved" somehow But I can live with that. I certainly find it easier in my mind than trying to finely parse the line in ten minute intervals where my "perfectly reasonable parenting technique" becomes "wrong and way too long"/borderline abuse.

I can't recommend this book enough!

Within a couple of months (I know it sounds long but seriously think of the trauma you and baby are both suffering right now) you'll both be sleeping great.

@MondieBee

Some parenting methods should be judged though, shouldn't they OP?

If I said "my 9 month old keeps having a tantrum when I give him the green plate, but I've found hitting him in the face makes him stop. We both feel so much better when he stops crying so it's really the best thing. However he bruises easily and people keep making judgmental comments! Can anyone recommend where else on his body to hit? Bum doesn't work, I think the nappy cushions it. No judgemental comments please, this works for us, he's so distressed when he has a tantrum and this sorts it" would you say meh, each to their own?

All this don't judge parents thing is utter bullshit when taken to it's logical conclusion.

@Soitis83 that's such good news about his nap. It makes such a difference. It's funny because I'm due no2 in a few weeks and I'm desperately trying to remember all these different stages and what I did. I think I was lucky last time as my son (with the exception of leaps) slept well overall but there were definitely things that I read that helped like the rousing after 30 mins. Also I remember I gave him a dream feed before I went to sleep which tended to seem him through an extra couple of hours but that was when he was quite little I think. I wish I could remember more but it's such a blur.