To use CIO with naps too?

[Soitis83]

DS is 9 months old, he sleeps so well at night. We put him in his cot, he cried for maybe 20/30 minutes on and off, then he sleeps all night. But naps, not so much. He can go over an hour of crying. He sleeps well if I leave my hand in the cot but doesn't stay asleep for longer than half and hour. Do I just leave him to cry ? I know some people arr dead against it, I am to an extent but I'm also open to being proved wrong. I don't need the science, believe me I've googled it all. I just need other mums who have done the same thing and whether it worked or didn't work for them???

the baby does not settle at all, his sleep is so bad and thats my fault as I would cuddle and feed to sleep before

Who told you this?! Because its ridiculous. His sleep is bad because he's a baby. Cuddling and feeding to sleep is not a bad thing to do, it's called comforting your child, you were doing the right thing. And who ever has told you that you were wrong to cuddle your child when they cried is an idiot and needs a good slap.

Your baby is crying, not to manipulate you or make you angry or stop you sleeping, he's crying because he needs you, dont leave him to cry for 30 minutes every night, just cuddle him.

Op there is nothing wrong with feeding to sleep.

And there's nothing wrong with ignoring your HV. Just smile and nod

Try the gentle sleep book by Sarah ockwell Smith

And I write all this as a mother whose now 5yo child still doesn't go to sleep or sleep through without me. It is what it is. Rather than fighting against what you think your baby needs, go with what they are telling you they need - comfort from you.

I am a FTM too. If you wanted gentle responses AIBU isn't the place for that. CC or CIO is just your baby learning that you won't come to them, you won't cuddle them. There must be other less severe methods you could try.

Funnily enough, everyone I knew when I had each child used to do CC or CIO. I always got looked at like I was mad for not doing it from the get go. “Oh when do you put him down to sleep” would be the question, followed by telling me at what time each day their baby dc just got put in their beds and left - perhaps with the odd check in.

My Mum was the only one I knew who is against this - and she’s very against it so I felt like I always had conflicting advice!

I should have just got with my own instinct from the start I guess but was very impressionable, especially the first time - well, more susceptible to feeling I was wrong as I didn’t do any CIO - maybe a bit when Dd was 1 or 2 I think.

YANBU at all. Our life improved so much for both our children when we did CIO - for bedtime first, then later on naps. Our first DS particularly was absolutely knackered and miserable and gripey all the time. Then we did CIO and got him on a proper nap routine and he was SO much happier, the little dark circles under his eyes went away.

That said, naps are hard for CIO. It's pretty ridiculous for them to cry for longer than they nap! And if you've not good a good nap routine already, it's hard ot know when to put them down. I highly highly recommend the book Precious Little Sleep for lots of advice on all sorts of sleep issues which lays out all the options for you to choose from. It's very realistic and open-minded and not a patented method at all.

Our second, we did CIO for naps AFTER we'd established a rock solid routine of nap timings - 9am, 12pm, 3pm, at the time. She slept brilliantly in the sling for them but was just starting to get way too heavy and I couldn't be jiggling around to white noise for three hours a day with another one to look after! So I was absolutely certain that I was putting her down when she was correctly tired, iyswim. If he goes down at the same time every day already that's fine, or if he naps well in the buggy you could walk him round til you've got a good sense of timings.

It is hard to do CIO with naps in practice, but in principle it can be done and I see no problem with it. You'll get lots of people telling you they never let their babies cry for even a minute ever, but either:
a) They are lying
b) They can't remember from being too sleep-deprived!
c) They had magical unicorn babies
d) They had nothing else to do and spent literally the whole day holding their babies and catering to their every whim (and are also somehow psychic and able to tell what those whims were)

You make sure you've taken care of all their physical needs, give them a cuddle and a story, then leave them to get on with it. At that age, though, I'd be thinking about putting a cuddly toy in the cot with them to play with until they drop off.

Sleep is the #1 priority in our house (theirs and mine!) and I don't care how we get it. Yes, I'm a heartless cow, but I don't think I would have been doing mine any favours to let them not nap.

By the way, DD is now 11 months old and has only just stopped a few weeks ago her "evening yowl", as we call it. Just like yours, a bit of a cry before sleeping through the night and waking up happy as Larry.

Cuddling and feeding to sleep is the biological norm in my eyes.

I think you're getting some harsh responses on here. I see you use CC rather than CIO which isn't the same thing. I think CC is so much more common than you'd think. Many people use a sleep trainer which is effectively CC but using a bunny or similar as a comforter.
Maybe try a different board as AIBU can be a harsh place.

Could you try buggy naps instead?

I appreciate peoples advice i do, but there is no need for the horrible comments. I'm young, I'm learning.
HV told me to stick it out for at least a week. The reason I stopped feeding to sleep is because he wasn't staying asleep, I would move and he would wake. And now he sleeps through, wakes up happy etc.
Sorry yes I meant controlled crying, I wasn't familiar with any of these a few days back, my bad.
I'll take what you all said on board.

OP I understand what bad sleep is like - my daughter woke up after every 40 mins of sleep, on the dot, from about 5 months until I night weaned her at 18months. Sometimes, miraculously, she would go two hours at a time. I was on my knees until we started bed-sharing. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.

But at 9 months old you certainly have not "exhausted all the options". And the option should never be to leave your child crying all alone. They cry because they need something. They're too young to be manipulative. Do you have a partner? Can you share bedtimes/wake-ups? Is baby breastfed - you could look to night wean it so, really helped my girl's sleep.

But please don't leave your baby to cry alone. You said it was hard to do? That's because all your instincts are telling you it's wrong. Because it is wrong.

^^That said, if you WANT to cuddle him to sleep, that's absolutely fine. It's not going to ruin him to be cuddled to sleep, and you could sit with your hand in the cot and read a book if you'd like.

He's YOUR baby, so YOU choose. I chose short term pain for long term gain. YMMV. Anyone who think it's child abuse is welcome to call Social Services on me.

Also, nine months is a classic time for a sleep regression.

I used to rock my eldest while she screamed herself to sleep at nap time. DH said he always thought that was crueller than leaving her alone!

My SIL was an avid CIOer and said her kids never napped during the day, I did used to wonder if it was because they didn’t really like going to sleep as a result of all the bedtime stress. If you can hack a nap time walk or drive that might help? I feel for you, that age is hard.

Hi OP. What you've described is called controlled crying. It's different to cry it out, which is where you just leave them. The idea with controlled crying is you check back in on them, so they're not left alone and upset for long periods. The idea with cc is that they learn to settle themselves. It normally takes a couple of nights up to a week or so, and over that time there should be a reduction in the time they spend crying until the point they're happy to settle themselves. How long has it been since you started using cc? If its been a while and they're still very upset before settling to sleep then I would suggest thinking about whether this is working.

An alternative approach and one which might also work for naps is gradual retreat. You would sit worth your little one while they drop off, but not really interact hugely. The idea is they are calmed by your presence but you're not 'getting them to sleep', you're supporting them to do it themselves. Then gradually over days and weeks you would move to sit further from the cot, until your out of the room.

I also think if you're struggling with naps and bedtime then it could be worth reviewing your daily routine. At 9m you should be getting 2 naps a day and 10-12hrs sleep at night. Sleep deprivation can lead to an accumulated sleep debt, which essentially causes stress hormones to be released and can make little ones fight sleep or lead to night wakings. If you think this could be a factor then I would suggest you consider putting little one to bed earlier. This could help them fall asleep easier.

Thank you so much! Especially @PerspicaciousGreen
I kind of knew I would get the odd person telling me this is awful, I just didn't expect so much! But you have just snapped me out of a very depressive mind set, I can't thank you enough.
Thats so helpful too about the naps. I'll try a buggy until we have a good nap routine going. He sometimes falls asleep easy in there. Its just they don't last long at all!
Thank you again

If you're still in the first few weeks of controlled crying and think it is working, then I would hold off doing the same at nap time for now. Your first priority is nighttime. For now, do whatever you need to do to make naps happen. Then when nights are more regular, see where you're at.

But op is it a sleep problem? It's only a.problem if it's a problem for you or your baby. If you are happy sitting with baby while he sleeps then carry on. I personally loved those days with my first baby

Also, CC was an absolute disaster for us. Just drew the whole thing out as every time I went in he'd rev up to max again. With DS, I sat outside his door crying myself wondering if I was doing the right thing. After a week, I wished I'd done it sooner, and with DD I just lobbed her in the cot and skipped merrily away!

I have much more faith in gradual retreat, which we did for DD initially with white noise and sling-jiggling before we got to the point where we made a clean break and did CIO.

My pet way of thinking about it is that any given baby has a set amount of crying they'll do before they sleep well. You can either have it up front all at once over a few days, or draw it out in small doses over months and months. I prefer to get it over with.

@Indecisivelurcher thats super helpful thank you. I have a good routine but its all gone out the window since trying controlled crying. Only been trying it for a few days and night time is so much better than it was!

@mynewusernameisthis yes a huge problem! Neither of us was happy!

@PerspicaciousGreen

I get the impression you are telling yourself things, irrespective of if they are true.

I don't, and never have left my children to cry.

I am not lying about this.

I keep a sleep log of my youngest, so not too sleep deprived to remember as its written down (on my phone).

Not magical unicorn babies- my 3.5 yo mostly sleeps through, but thats recent, and my nearly 2 year old is up 2-4 times a night. At the OP's age it was in double digits sometimes.

I have other things to do, namely having two children and working (and have done since the youngest was 6w old).

And no, I don't think there is a set amount of crying they have to do before sleeping , neither of mine have cried hardly at all, and with the eldest (who I'd know was ill if she cried more than 10 minutes) slept through without a tear or a battle in the end, in her own time.

I'm not saying that my actions have helped them sleep, I probably could have got them sleeping earlier if I'd been harsher, but the things you tell yourself are for your benefit, and bear little resemblance to the truth of how many of us parent.

What time is your little one up in the morning? Babies tend to do well with a 12hr night and 12hr day, give or take. So if they're up at 7am say, i would start bedtime at 6:30. See if that helps. If daytime naps are only 30 or 40m long you might want to go for 6pm bedtime, even.

Neither of my two napped for long until they consolidated their naps to just the one after lunch, which was at over 12m old. Maybe 18m. It's all a sleep deprivation blur. They're 3 and 6 now. I ended up doing controlled crying with both, at different ages and for different reasons. So no judgement here. But you do need to get daytime naps and bedtime right so you're set up for success. If you see what I mean. If your little one is already past the point when you're putting them down to bed then it'll lead to more crying.

@Indecisivelurcher thank you. I'll try an earlier bedtime and see how he gets on. Thing is, he sometimes ( due to awful naps ) needs a late afternoon nap then just doesn't want to sleep! But that early bedtime is super helpful and I'll try that tonight thank you

OP if you're a newbie here, there's a long history of sleep training being controversial, you'll get people piling on as above, others saying it worked for them.

Sleep training methods should work within three days to a week, so there's a concentrated bit of crying whereas supposedly gentler methods often involve trying to put down/get away from a sleeping baby who then wakes and cries, but that goes on for years.

I did sleep training with my two kids and within a few weeks they not only went to sleep but were obviously happy to go into their cot, reaching for it etc. The 'they're terrified and silent' lot are wrong in my opinion.

I'd advise a book on sleep training if it doesn't seem to be working for you. Your baby shouldn't be crying every night.

And he usually get up around 7/7:30.

Does baby sleep in the buggy? I found taking mine out sent him off like a charm. I occasionally tried some very gentle cc and it worked to some extent but I felt bloody awful. I never left him for more than couple of mins but most of the time he dropped off before that point. I also did learn the difference between a true distressed cry which cuts through that soul and I couldn't leave him crying like that at all. He had a grumpy tired cry which I knew if I left him a couple of mins max he would be out like a light. You know your baby so trust your instincts. Other things that worked for me were white noise, dummy, muslin cloth draped over one eye (only when I was watching), and using a sleepyhead.