AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

@Thewithesarehere

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women? It is an issue because it’s not a fair competition in any sense of the word. When you want to pick the best apples, you don’t compare them to oranges.

For me it is because the prize is set to boost women because of their historic oppression which relates usually to their biology and all that goes with it. Including pregnancy and child raising which is key to this discussion and more often than not left out of it entirely. It is because BIOLOGY, not despite biology.

if they state their gender as a woman, surely they still get paid less?

No, they don't.

Because everyone still knows that they are a man.

Please see my photo of the transwoman who tells us we must accept beard, dick, testosterone etc. "She" identifies as a woman. But everyone else identifies "her" as a man. So women are scared ""she might attack them if they refuse to cave to "her" demands, "she" has never had to face the prospect of being sacked for being pregnant, there has been no glass ceiling, no sex discrimination, no female socialisation meaning "she" defers to others in the room, accepts being talked over, patronised, mansplained to, looks at a job application and sees what she can't do rather than what she can, etc etc.

It matters a lot if men take women's hard won women only positions. A hell of a lot.

[quote ListeningQuietly]@RootyT00t
I know it happened, but I just can't imaging living in a time when being gay was illegal.
You live in that time
just not that country
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

Two gay men were beaten nearly to death today
by their government[/quote]
True, that was bad wording on my part.

Sorry forgot to post it.

D'you think this person has ever hit a glass ceiling?

This person may however, feel annoyed about the cotton one.

@Winesalot

Do these polls get stuck on the 92% 8% ratio?

No they don’t. It’s a reflection of the vote in real time.

Maybe we shouldn't pander to identity politics, ignore it, and just get on with our own lives.

@ScreamingBeans

Sorry forgot to post it.

D'you think this person has ever hit a glass ceiling?

This person may however, feel annoyed about the cotton one.

Not a glass ceiling, but we have no idea what they have experienced.

I'm not a fan of screengrabs and shots from a person on twitter/in the paper/off the telly.

For every person like that there will be one not, who just wants to be accepted for who they are. Like the posts about threatens to beat up and rape etc, that is not everyone.

This is where I get the transphobia /bias, if you will from - it's the equivalent of me posting a picture of a woman saying something outrageous (Hopkins! we will pick her, I've not picked on her for a while) and saying women do this.

@ScreamingBeans

Sorry forgot to post it.

D'you think this person has ever hit a glass ceiling?

This person may however, feel annoyed about the cotton one.

Never experienced a glass ceiling, but then never accepted that it existed in the first place.

@ScreamingBeans

if they state their gender as a woman, surely they still get paid less?

No, they don't.

Because everyone still knows that they are a man.

Please see my photo of the transwoman who tells us we must accept beard, dick, testosterone etc. "She" identifies as a woman. But everyone else identifies "her" as a man. So women are scared ""she might attack them if they refuse to cave to "her" demands, "she" has never had to face the prospect of being sacked for being pregnant, there has been no glass ceiling, no sex discrimination, no female socialisation meaning "she" defers to others in the room, accepts being talked over, patronised, mansplained to, looks at a job application and sees what she can't do rather than what she can, etc etc.

It matters a lot if men take women's hard won women only positions. A hell of a lot.

But she is not every transwoman.

If someone transitions in their 20s, starts a job in their 30s, and let's assume they don't look like or go on like that, as a "woman" in the company, who in the world is going to say you're a man so I'm paying you as one? I don't believe that happens.

I'm not a man

How do you know? (Sorry couldn't resist)

There is an inconsistent logic to the TWAW argument

There is NO logic to the TWAW argument.

Rooty, every one here is fighting for the kids who are being taught lies as facts in school and online. This is causing mental health issues not solving them.

All those girls being told their feelings and boundaries and even their very (supposedly protected under the equality act) sex and sexual orientation are irrelevant. Do you think that's acceptable? Just collateral damage to protect the few.

Because straight adult males are telling young lesbians that if they are only attracted to females THEY must be straight men. Because men now want the word lesbian to include penis owners.
Seriously it's absurd that this level of lesbophobia is being not only tolerated but championed!!

I currently know families with 3 teens. Perfectly at home in their female bodies until they hit year 9 (13) that's when they start to realise their sexual orientation and that men view them as objects. Or they bullied for not being feminine enough or gay. So they go online and are sold this bull that they can change sex. It isn't making their co morbid mental health issues go away. How can it when they aren't allowed to be explored because 'trans'

They need to separate the teens with ROGD and the adult males with no dysphoria. The two have groups have little in common other than the word trans.

One group pushed to ask for life altering meds/surgery, yet the other don't seem have to change one single thing.

90%+ of all children who suffer from gender dysphoria grow out of it when their bodies AND brains are left to mature. So why affirm and medicate 100% of them? It's completely unethical.

Would you give 100% of teens who had cancer symptoms chemo which would damage their bodies and leave them sterile even though only 10% actually had cancer?

The worst is when they tell these kids they can always have eggs frozen for later like it's as easy as opening a savings account. Any woman who has been through IVF and been pumped full of hormones to have eggs harvested, could you imagine putting a teenager who already has issues with their hormones and female body through that?
Not the same as wanking into a cup is it.

And that's before even thinking about all these magic human incubators that will supposedly be happy to be used to produce a child for them.

Why exactly is it that we must all pretend sex isn't real because a tiny minority have an issue with theirs?
If their mental health relies on constantly being lied to, how on earth is that helpful or healthy.

Gender is sex role stereotypes. Not sex. So why are they demanding sex is replaced in law by 'gender identity'
Sex based protections cover half the population including all those young transmen. Males have zero requirement of female sex based rights.

Also @Rooty you are liaising with young trans people by the sound of it. There is another side to this which is not about social identity but about something much darker. To explore this have a look at the trans widows thread on feminist chat. Middle aged men transitioning and arguing for kink acceptance is something else. Then one wonders why so many adults are invested in a new generation of trans normalisation. Does it not strike you as odd that there is a glitter family waiting in the wings for young people?

For every person like that there will be one not, who just wants to be accepted for who they are. Like the posts about threatens to beat up and rape etc, that is not everyone.

Its not everyone, no. It's common enough to be a problem for women in public life.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

I'm not a man

How do you know? (Sorry couldn't resist)

There is an inconsistent logic to the TWAW argument

There is NO logic to the TWAW argument.

Rooty, every one here is fighting for the kids who are being taught lies as facts in school and online. This is causing mental health issues not solving them.

All those girls being told their feelings and boundaries and even their very (supposedly protected under the equality act) sex and sexual orientation are irrelevant. Do you think that's acceptable? Just collateral damage to protect the few.

Because straight adult males are telling young lesbians that if they are only attracted to females THEY must be straight men. Because men now want the word lesbian to include penis owners.
Seriously it's absurd that this level of lesbophobia is being not only tolerated but championed!!

I currently know families with 3 teens. Perfectly at home in their female bodies until they hit year 9 (13) that's when they start to realise their sexual orientation and that men view them as objects. Or they bullied for not being feminine enough or gay. So they go online and are sold this bull that they can change sex. It isn't making their co morbid mental health issues go away. How can it when they aren't allowed to be explored because 'trans'

They need to separate the teens with ROGD and the adult males with no dysphoria. The two have groups have little in common other than the word trans.

One group pushed to ask for life altering meds/surgery, yet the other don't seem have to change one single thing.

90%+ of all children who suffer from gender dysphoria grow out of it when their bodies AND brains are left to mature. So why affirm and medicate 100% of them? It's completely unethical.

Would you give 100% of teens who had cancer symptoms chemo which would damage their bodies and leave them sterile even though only 10% actually had cancer?

The worst is when they tell these kids they can always have eggs frozen for later like it's as easy as opening a savings account. Any woman who has been through IVF and been pumped full of hormones to have eggs harvested, could you imagine putting a teenager who already has issues with their hormones and female body through that?
Not the same as wanking into a cup is it.

And that's before even thinking about all these magic human incubators that will supposedly be happy to be used to produce a child for them.

Why exactly is it that we must all pretend sex isn't real because a tiny minority have an issue with theirs?
If their mental health relies on constantly being lied to, how on earth is that helpful or healthy.

Gender is sex role stereotypes. Not sex. So why are they demanding sex is replaced in law by 'gender identity'
Sex based protections cover half the population including all those young transmen. Males have zero requirement of female sex based rights.

Haha I'll give you that. BUt I'm pretty sure I'm a lady (you lot would hate me, I'm one of the "I'm a girl" offenders where 342 posters ask you how old you are since you're a girl)

I don't think the analogy between trans and cancer is quite cricket so I'mn not touching that. BUt I don't understand this bit

ecause straight adult males are telling young lesbians that if they are only attracted to females THEY must be straight men. Because men now want the word lesbian to include penis owners.
Seriously it's absurd that this level of lesbophobia is being not only tolerated but championed!!

Who are these men you refer to?

@JoodyBlue

Also *@Rooty* you are liaising with young trans people by the sound of it. There is another side to this which is not about social identity but about something much darker. To explore this have a look at the trans widows thread on feminist chat. Middle aged men transitioning and arguing for kink acceptance is something else. Then one wonders why so many adults are invested in a new generation of trans normalisation. Does it not strike you as odd that there is a glitter family waiting in the wings for young people?

I wouldn't say I'm liaising with them, that's not my job role. But I've seen the connection between autism and trans, put it that way.

Glitter family waiting in the wings?

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?

And the business woman of the year prize awarded to a mature male transitioner who spends a few days a week as a female and a few as a male? Look up Pippa/Philip bunce.

As others have said, these prizes are there to encourage women. To help women to overcome the sexism faced that always seemed to progress males ahead of females. It is still happening even today. So why should a male who has already had privelege if you may, all their life be awarded for being the best woman? When it is likely they have had opportunities that women have never had.

Did you read about the experiment done with the veterinarian association? Two almost identical CVs, one female and one male. The male CV was employed more often and at a higher rate. This was last year. This is still happening. Why should a male who has had the socialisation of a male, had benefit of even being a male at school get an award to progress females and recognize female achievement?

If you don’t see the discrimination against women still happening, you must work in a great job. I am all for having awards recognizing transwomen in a way that is acceptable to them. But not taking awards for females.

And jobs set aside for women.

I won’t turn this into an ‘essay’ though. But when males who have still had the benefits of being male take roles set aside for females (or to address gender balance in corporations) it does conflict with progressing women.

As you can tell, this really isn’t limited to loos.

don't think the analogy between trans and cancer is quite cricket so I'mn not touching that.

Why? Do you think there is a stigma for cancer? Gender dysphoria is simply a medical condition, isn't it?

Rooty
You are fine to disregard the beardy picture from Twitter.

What about the elected Democratic representative in New York
who has actively and deliberately disenfranchised biological women

to get that place?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

For every person like that there will be one not, who just wants to be accepted for who they are. Like the posts about threatens to beat up and rape etc, that is not everyone.

Its not everyone, no. It's common enough to be a problem for women in public life.

But so are abusive men, and yet (aside from threads on here, etc) we don't label all men in the same way.

I don't agree with the various "men want this, think this say this" "women do this , say this". I think it's damaging for feminism and I think it createa a bigger divide. I think misogny is thrown around when sometimes it is just seeing both sides and not jumping to label all men,

For example -
there was a thread on here where men were effectively being ripped to shreds. Women were sharing experiences of rape and abuse and absolutely rightly so being supported but there was a lot of all men are, men do this , men are that and anyone who suggested it's not all men were accused of not supporting women.

It's divisive, it increases the divide rather than decrease it and it harms the cause.

In the same sense, if we see a picture of a transmen doing or saying something we don't and then decide this is a problem for all women and all transwomen,that's divisive.

For every person like that there will be one not, who just wants to be accepted for who they are. Like the posts about threatens to beat up and rape etc, that is not everyone

The point is, should this person be allowed to shower with 7 year old girls and to get changed with teenage girls?

If this person is a woman, then of course she should.

Which brings us back to the question, what is a woman then?

And how can we tell the difference between a brave, proud transwoman and a man? Given that 80% of male people who call themselves transwomen, do not transition and this person we're discussing is actually more representative of the average transwoman in terms of appearance, than the rare passing example you cite.

Sorry @Ereshkigalangcleg I managed "a transmen", whatever one of those is - I meant a pictture of transwomen.

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?

Because they are male. They have in many cases benefited from male privilege. They get paid at the male rate, if they transitioned in later life. Women need these opportunities to be ringfenced due to structural sexism and sex based oppression and discrimination. These male people shouldn't be expecting women to step aside, they should take from men, it's nothing to do with us.

But so are abusive men, and yet (aside from threads on here, etc) we don't label all men in the same way.

No, we don't.

But we keep ALL men out of women's showers and changing rooms, even though we know most of them are nice and not the dodgy predatory ones.

Why do you think we do that?

Should we say all men should be allowed in rape crisis centres, on mixed sex wards (d'you remember the NHS tried that and everyone hated it) and to change in mixed sex changing rooms?

Given that most men are perfectly safe?

I simply don't accept males as women. And I'm not exactly in the minority in society on that. I won't put women and girls second, just because male feelings get hurt. I see the toxic misogyny in gender identity politics.

@ScreamingBeans

For every person like that there will be one not, who just wants to be accepted for who they are. Like the posts about threatens to beat up and rape etc, that is not everyone

The point is, should this person be allowed to shower with 7 year old girls and to get changed with teenage girls?

If this person is a woman, then of course she should.

Which brings us back to the question, what is a woman then?

And how can we tell the difference between a brave, proud transwoman and a man? Given that 80% of male people who call themselves transwomen, do not transition and this person we're discussing is actually more representative of the average transwoman in terms of appearance, than the rare passing example you cite.

I absolutely don't agree that this person is representative of the average transwoman. It depends what you're basing this on. What we see on those programmes? The media? The news?

Of course you don't take note of every transwoman who fits in appearance wise because.....they fit in appearance wise.

The 80 percent isnt 80 percent when you take out the people that don't do it because of their extreme gynder dysphoria and inability to access medical care.

In a mixed changing room, men do shower at the same time as children and we don't have a problem with this (if we do, we get changed privately).

But when it's a transwoman we have a problem. Why?

In a mixed changing room, men do shower at the same time as children and we don't have a problem with this (if we do, we get changed privately).

But when it's a transwoman we have a problem. Why?

Why do you think we have less problem with men who don't claim to be the opposite sex? I don't. I don't want to shower with any males, thanks.

I don't use mixed changing rooms.