AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

But I can't imagine how it must feel to feel like that and then if you do transition (or during transitioning) to be made to feel you aren't welcome, you don't belong, etc etc

People who feel like this need support for sure. Children who feel like this are thrown straight into the affirmation model which I think is really problematic because it can lead to damaging medical interventions to pause that can make them sterile. The gender ideology that is being taught to children is causing more people to feel like this. It is not possible to be born wrong. All kinds of men are still men and the same for women. I am the mother of a non gender conforming autistic girl in the sense of her hobbies and her clothes but she is still a girl.

Adults who feel this way had the option of the GRC, for most that was enough. Many trans people believe that sex is real just as much as we do and this is not in their name. Again why does their need for affirmation trump womens sex based rights?

Fair play to you Rooty 😊😊 and yes come and have a look at FWR - cone for the feminism, stay fur the recipes (though I can’t vouch for the weetabix stuff!)

I was 100% in the ‘be kind/how can it possibly hurt women?’ camp at first.
I thought, How hard can it be to treat TW like women? It’s not as if we’re meant to believe they actually ARE women is it?
And then I got the memo saying that actually yes a TW was a literal woman entitled to any and all female spaces including taking up positions as women officers, on committees for women, prizes set up to boost women and that furthermore this was not up for discussion on pain of being threatened with hatred & sent death threats

I really wish it had not come to this but when any questions is met with “nodebate bigot” what are we meant to do?

@RootyT00t

Rooty has returned in the spirit of a child who is allowed back at their table and is being overly pleasant to make up for their earlier tantrum.

However, all other posts aside, here is my thoughts (I'll get to studies when I've done some research).

What got my hackles up earlier is that I work with young ones who are so directly affected by social media it does so much damage. I also work with and know people who have lived LGBT lives from being young and having see their pain of never being accepted or quite fitting in or being judged etc etc.

i'll admit I went from genuinely, and I mean genuinely believing that some of the things I read on here were transphobic, that was a gut reaction though and it was a strong thing to say. I get generally hackled by things such as people playing word games with things that for actual human beings reading this, are massive to their life (ie a sex change, or whether they "feel" they are a woman).

I am a woman despite the many guesses that i'm a man. I'm also not trans, nor do I have any idea how it "feels" to be in the wrong body. but I can imagine. And when I see things saying they can't feel like that, I see red.

Posters would probably recognise me under my previous username on threads about "all women do" "all men do" I hate the division of women and men, and the accusations of misogny. Hate it.

I am very lucky to know many men, great men, some dickheads, but it's the same with the women I know. I also have known an unusually large amount of LGBT people so I suppose my "finger pointing" is actually that all of my 'argument', if you will, comes from human emotion, feelings, and not an issue I've studied. Rather as focusing on the issue of women feeling threatened, I'm immediately jumping to how someone who is trans would feel reading comments like this. But then I'm like that about all social media.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I've had my little kick offs here and there and inspired the Babs (that was a ridiculous point, I'd lost the plot by then) and I will hover around to read this stuff and see if I can understand more about the issue, rather as just how I see it.

I will apologise to the posters who felt I was dishonest, spiteful or anything along those lines, Not my intention at all.

I think this is a brilliant post and thank you for sharing your thoughts @Rooty. So from my point of view, the T was added to the LGB fairly late in my life. I saw gay people struggling for most of it and have always supported gay rights. I campaigned against section 28. The adding of the T by Stonewall was relatively recent (last decade ?) and the argument is a push to normalise trans into the mainstream, despite trans being something completely different. One of the reasons (and there are a few) I push against this is because a trans lifestyle is hard for people. For most of my life trans people have been accepted where they have been part of communities, but no one ever pretended it was easy for them or a desireable choice. To me, I see this being sold as a choice to young people and it frightens me. I worked recently with a group of depressed teens. One third of them id-ed as trans. The rest all felt they had to id into a gender identity. They don't and it is not kind to tell them that they do. In fact it is pretty unkind.

Third spaces are the answer. Anyone could use them so they would not be othering. That would then leave single sex facilities for those who want to keep them. But that is always dismissed out of hand.

We all know that Trans people exist and many just go about their lives quietly. What's happening with this agenda now due to affirmation rather than watch and wait is that many young people are being encouraged to come out as Trans when they are more likely to be gay/lesbian or gender non conforming. Many autistic girls are getting caught up in this too. There needs to be studies as to why but the likes of the Tavistock, Mermaids, stonewall etc are not interested. That's why there are detransitioners and I think there will be many more to come.

@RootyT00t
I am old.
In the 1970s lots of the pop stars experimented with makeup and long hair and non conforming.
It was part of them deciding where their boundaries lay.
Among my fiends
Some realised they were gay.
Some realised they were bi.
Some realised they were asexual.
At least one realised they needed full "sex change" surgery to be happy
For the vast majority it was a phase that exist only in old photos laughed at by them and their spouses and kids.

At that time mental health support for non conforming was shit
and being gay under 21 was illegal
BUT
the current

affirmation model
is pushing vulnerable teenagers who are surging with hormones
into short term decisions
about life changing options
aided and abetted by misogynists of my age who want to keep women and gays in their place

Teenagers need support and space and time to think
the current TRA onslaught does not give them that

friends - but fiends is fair too ;-)

@Biscuitsanddoombar

Fair play to you Rooty 😊😊 and yes come and have a look at FWR - cone for the feminism, stay fur the recipes (though I can’t vouch for the weetabix stuff!)

I was 100% in the ‘be kind/how can it possibly hurt women?’ camp at first.
I thought, How hard can it be to treat TW like women? It’s not as if we’re meant to believe they actually ARE women is it?
And then I got the memo saying that actually yes a TW was a literal woman entitled to any and all female spaces including taking up positions as women officers, on committees for women, prizes set up to boost women and that furthermore this was not up for discussion on pain of being threatened with hatred & sent death threats

I really wish it had not come to this but when any questions is met with “nodebate bigot” what are we meant to do?

But ducks

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?

I understand that TW do not have many of the same things of "being" a women.

but, if they state their gender as a woman, surely they still get paid less? Are attacked on nights out (I'd imagine relatively commonly, in certain areas where people really are bigots)

In fact do you not think TW with the stigma this brings may well have issues in areas that women don't?

When I think about TW I don't think about people like Drag Race. I think about every day people who just want to feel accepted.

The changing room issues really gets me because they're not allowed in with women, hammering home that they will never be a woman. They can't go in with men. So the solution is...TW changing rooms?

I also don't get the argument about what if a man fancies a woman. This is no different to gay women (and not everyone is attracted to everyone). I got irate about the suggestions that a man would transition so he could access victims. I'm sure it's happened (ie in prisons) but the vast majority of people who are TW surely want to be accepted for their identity.

@DialSquare

Third spaces are the answer. Anyone could use them so they would not be othering. That would then leave single sex facilities for those who want to keep them. But that is always dismissed out of hand.

We all know that Trans people exist and many just go about their lives quietly. What's happening with this agenda now due to affirmation rather than watch and wait is that many young people are being encouraged to come out as Trans when they are more likely to be gay/lesbian or gender non conforming. Many autistic girls are getting caught up in this too. There needs to be studies as to why but the likes of the Tavistock, Mermaids, stonewall etc are not interested. That's why there are detransitioners and I think there will be many more to come.

Sorry Dial Square, we cross posted.

What if a TW doesnt want to use the third space? That creates an issue.

I've just read your second part similarly written by another poster and I don't disagree wiht most of it other than I don't think the gay/lesbian is a connection (but the gender non conforming absolutely is). I've seen it in autistic girls in my line of work.

I don't know if any of you were on the other thread where it was revealed that suicide statistics etc are manipulated by the likes of Mermaid, I didn't know that was a thing.

Weirdly enough i know a transman and a transwomen. The transman has been readily accepted by his peers, his partner and lives a fantastic life now but I knew him before and we always just "knew". But they were different times. A sort of middle ground between what others are talking about where it was mental health/illlegal and now where it's encouraged, if you will.

Does that help? It’s about protecting trans gender people with regard to their correct gender, not their gender as assigned at birth.

"Gender" is not assigned at birth.

SEX is IDENTIFIED at birth.

"Gender" is a social construct - "You are female therefore society expects you to like pink/ play with dolls/ look after your complexion etc You are male therefore society expects you to wear blue/ play football/ get drunk etc" That is "gender".

There is nothing to stop women and girls doing - and being good at - the things that society associates with men, and here is nothing to stop men dressing in frocks and enjoying the things that society associates with women. (And I would also say that many of these things vary from culture to culture.) These things are NOT sex-defined. They are GENDER expectations.

[quote ListeningQuietly]@RootyT00t
I am old.
In the 1970s lots of the pop stars experimented with makeup and long hair and non conforming.
It was part of them deciding where their boundaries lay.
Among my fiends
Some realised they were gay.
Some realised they were bi.
Some realised they were asexual.
At least one realised they needed full "sex change" surgery to be happy
For the vast majority it was a phase that exist only in old photos laughed at by them and their spouses and kids.

At that time mental health support for non conforming was shit
and being gay under 21 was illegal
BUT
the current

affirmation model
is pushing vulnerable teenagers who are surging with hormones
into short term decisions
about life changing options
aided and abetted by misogynists of my age who want to keep women and gays in their place

Teenagers need support and space and time to think
the current TRA onslaught does not give them that[/quote]
I know it happened, but I just can't imaging living in a time when being gay was illegal.

Why is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?
Crick and Watson got the Nobel Prize
Rosalind Franklin was written out because she was a woman.

Women have been discriminated against for centuries
WHY should men grab the prizes designed to equalise our opportunities?

Do you care about Women MP's to represent the 50% of the population who are women?
So when rules were set by a pioneering woman (Eleanor Roosevelt) to ensure that women could be elected to represent women
is it good that a man takes that place ?
thevelvetchronicle.com/ny-democrats-quietly-dismantle-1-male-1-female-rule/

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?

Assuming by "prize" we mean promotion, shortlist, sports event, officers hip, scholarship, place at the table...

Because the TW has not had to overcome the same challenges as a natal woman and their receiving the prize means a natal woman who DID overcome those challenges does not get the prize.

Now the TW undoubtedly had her own challenges to overcome. But they were not women's challenges, they were TW's challenges. So TW should be rewarded for that, not for winning a game they never even had to play.

If TW need prizes they need to demand their own recognition, not take it from natal women. Take prizes from the big pile that men have not the small pile women have.

@RootyT00t
I know it happened, but I just can't imaging living in a time when being gay was illegal.
You live in that time
just not that country
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

Two gay men were beaten nearly to death today
by their government

But i think for the vast majority they just "knew" if you will. How? I don't know.

This made me remember a chat I had with an individual who'd transitioned in the late sixties - not because of some innate feeling of "being a girl" but simply because of feeling that he "didn't belong with the boys". Biological sex was never denied and transing didn't afford a sense of belonging with either sex. There was an acknowledgement that, had decisions been delayed for a bit, there would've been less personal cost to just come out as gay were it not for the rampant parental homophobia. There was also an admission that simply feeling like you don't belong with the boys doesn't mean you're really a girl.
These days though, it gets affirmed with no exploration at all...

If a transwoman doesn't want to use a third space then I'm afraid the issue is theirs. They are not women and by using single sex spaces of the opposite sex, they are changing theirs spaces to mixed sex. Many women can not use mixed sex spaces so that would prevent them using the spaces that are meant for them. Which is not acceptable.

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women?
It is an issue because it’s not a fair competition in any sense of the word.
When you want to pick the best apples, you don’t compare them to oranges.

@DialSquare

If a transwoman doesn't want to use a third space then I'm afraid the issue is theirs. They are not women and by using single sex spaces of the opposite sex, they are changing theirs spaces to mixed sex. Many women can not use mixed sex spaces so that would prevent them using the spaces that are meant for them. Which is not acceptable.

I don't actually disagree but whatever it's called, however it's labelled, it's a changing room for trans people.

Presumably men would have the same choice to not have a transman in there, so it would become "trans people" space, and going by the theories on here about attraction etc and you still being what you are, by that logic, you would still have men and women in there together.

I remember as a kid my mam used to make us get changed in a family one, mum dad and two kids, and I hated family changing rooms. Hated seeing people cutting about half dressed etc, so maybe i'm a prude.

@BettyFloop

But i think for the vast majority they just "knew" if you will. How? I don't know.

This made me remember a chat I had with an individual who'd transitioned in the late sixties - not because of some innate feeling of "being a girl" but simply because of feeling that he "didn't belong with the boys". Biological sex was never denied and transing didn't afford a sense of belonging with either sex. There was an acknowledgement that, had decisions been delayed for a bit, there would've been less personal cost to just come out as gay were it not for the rampant parental homophobia. There was also an admission that simply feeling like you don't belong with the boys doesn't mean you're really a girl.
These days though, it gets affirmed with no exploration at all...

I think lots of things today. Not comparing things, but there is a jump to accept it if you will - autism, anxiety, ADHD, my personal favourite demand avoidance, because (as I proved earlier) people want to be seen to be accepting.

I can't believe someone would believe being trans would be more acceptable , whatever that means, than being gay. This is what I mean about how awful it must be for these people.

Potentially the sixties were different though. I always think about all those many men and women who went on in a loveless sexless marriage because they couldn't come out. I did a module in bereavement when I did counsellor training and someone told a story about a man in his 90s who had to go to the funeral of someone he'd had a secret relationship with all his life and stand there and pretend he was his friend. Absolutely heartbreaking.

I digress. I suppose because of all the information now freely available, it is hard to know who is 'genuinely' trans, if you will , and who has been taken in by this. I remember a pupil of mine being genuinely shocked that you could be as passionate about LGBT as I am, and be straight.

It would be a space for anyone who isn't happy with sex spaces and for anyone who does not mind ,

@Thewithesarehere

WHy is it an issue if a TW receives a prize set to boost women? It is an issue because it’s not a fair competition in any sense of the word. When you want to pick the best apples, you don’t compare them to oranges.

A few posters have now explained this to me.

I didn't necessarily agree when CJ won woman of the year, but if it is something in relation to a job or something like that, I don't know if I see the issue. In legal terms, they are a woman.

But i didn't know about the historical thing about Roosevelt etc.

I don't think it would be a Trans persons place. I think families would use them, non binary, young people out together etc.

I remember as a kid my mam used to make us get changed in a family one, mum dad and two kids, and I hated family changing rooms. Hated seeing people cutting about half dressed etc, so maybe i'm a prude.

So, you'd probably like one of the possible solutions which is properly designed individual spaces in the mix. Mixed sex rooms at swimming pools etc are needed for a single parent going with opposite sex children, and also for people who need carers.

@midgedude

It would be a space for anyone who isn't happy with sex spaces and for anyone who does not mind ,

Sorry, explain that to me again?

Despite my possibly slightly older sounding pseudonym, I also consider myself to be young(ish) and I don't know a time when women didn't have basic rights enshrined in law.

Marital rape has only been illegal since 1992 in th UK, the idea that it was still legal when I was a small child seems completely bizzare. And on far more extreme end, I'm currently reading up on the mass rape of women carried out by the Red Army during the last months of the war. 100,000 in Berlin and similar in the Polish cities. Hardly addressed in the literature until recent years, while there has been a never-ending focus on the battles then men fought. US and British troops were also far from innocent. Women were an acceptable form of plunder and their suffering was a form of shame, you can take pride as a male soldier and be celebrated for it. Womens pain should be hushed up. This was only a few decades ago, no time at all and within living memory for many, not that far away from any of us.

I realise this is not on the topic of the thread but I consider it vitally important to keep awareness of where the boundaries and protections that are in place are being pushed against. They have been erected for a reason. The history of the female sex is not a happy one. It would be naive of me to think the current safe status quo I experience will always be here, especially if we don't continue to act as guardians to the progress others have made for us.

Many other women have fought and suffered for the rights I enjoy today, it would be an insult to just let them fall for the sake of just "being kind".

@ErrolTheDragon

I remember as a kid my mam used to make us get changed in a family one, mum dad and two kids, and I hated family changing rooms. Hated seeing people cutting about half dressed etc, so maybe i'm a prude.

So, you'd probably like one of the possible solutions which is properly designed individual spaces in the mix. Mixed sex rooms at swimming pools etc are needed for a single parent going with opposite sex children, and also for people who need carers.

Oh I know they're needed, I'm not taking away from that!

So would you propose moving people who don't want to get changed in a communal area into the "third space" or moving people who are trans into the third space? I'm not sure i get this.