AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Can rooty stay if she promises to read and learn and not cal people Barbara

@Rooty

@lifeturnsonadime ok, but are these people allowed to compete in paralympic sports, and shit all over hard won (but piss poor) disability rights? Are they allowed to force everyone to validate their feelings, and dish out death threats to actual disabled people who say, no? If not, why not? Where is the self ID line drawn? It may not be the best analogy, but it's what my mind keeps going back to. How can everyone see that one is absurd, but the other is to be accepted without exception?

@Rooty - seriously - go and read some stuff on the feminist chat forum. You don't have to post, although of course you are really welcome to. I don't know what you thought you might find on mumsnet, but it is people's mums, of all backgrounds, ages, shapes and sizes and ethnicities. Argument is robust. Usually mums have a camaraderie because having kids is f*ing hard. And there are lots of brilliant non mums too. And young people are needed in the arguments we have been having. Stay, stay, stay......

Mumble I don't know too much about it because I find it really distasteful but I believe it has been an issue in Para sport with a team posing as having learning difficulties.

[quote JoodyBlue]**@Rooty* - seriously - go and read some stuff on the feminist chat forum. You don't have to post, although of course you are really welcome to. I don't know what you thought you might find on mumsnet, but it is people's mums, of all backgrounds, ages, shapes and sizes and ethnicities. Argument is robust. Usually mums have a camaraderie because having kids is f**ing hard. And there are lots of brilliant non mums too. And young people are needed in the arguments we have been having. Stay, stay, stay......[/quote]
I've been here a while but I've been especially moody on threads recently. Pandemic etc.

@MumbleBee20 - I do see what you mean :) Unfortunately though, analogy with disadvantaged groups sometimes derails the women's argument, as people go off at tangents and so people are inadvertently offended, so personally I try to avoid going there. But the logic is similar for sure.

@Rooty - yh - it is crap

Oh bloody hell R00ty my mind would be a wibbling mush if I followed the covid threads for more than 10 mins (data thread excepted). I can't look at them now or I'll lose any faith I ever had in the human race...

(Assuming you meant you'd been on those threads... rather than just suffering life in the shitshow that has been the last year).

I know its distasteful, and if I had an equally shocking, but less offensive comparison to use, I would have done. Sorry if I upset you. I'm trying to find ways for all of this to make sense in my own head.

@DeaconBoo

Oh bloody hell R00ty my mind would be a wibbling mush if I followed the covid threads for more than 10 mins (data thread excepted). I can't look at them now or I'll lose any faith I ever had in the human race...

(Assuming you meant you'd been on those threads... rather than just suffering life in the shitshow that has been the last year).

No I meant jus suffering in general

@RootyT00t you get a special invite to the next candlelight supper

The thread has moved fast! Here is the latest on vote.
Go down Twitter!

@RootyT00t

Can rooty stay if she promises to read and learn and not cal people Barbara

Rooty

If you read and come up with some coherent points, we welcome you with open arms. Whatever point you are arguing. It'd be great to have some lively discussions that were actually well thought out and not merely setting out to point that pointy finger of shame.

And we genuinely like to get linked up to different studies, different logical and coherent papers. We see the same old debunked stuff all the time. I mean ALL THE TIME.

And we get the same posters who never present anything except pointy fingers.

So, if you do end up reading anything, send it our way please.

I suspect the Babs might stay a while though. They have a support group going.

mumble it's no different. It's identifying as something more oppressed. Google Chloe Jennings White who is both transgender and transabled. I think it is not uncommon to identify into more than one thing.

I think the Rachel Dozeil case shows that there is little appetite for the transracial, although on a purely intellectual level there is no reason, in my opinion, why if a person can change sex if you believe TWAW that they shouldn't be able to change race on the basis of identifying as another race.

@Winesalot I like the babs 💖

[quote BarbaraofKent]@RootyT00t you get a special invite to the next candlelight supper [/quote]
I made you, so I hope I am head of the table!

Of course, everyone is welcome to stay anyway what it being a public place and all.

I think the Rachel Dozeil case shows that there is little appetite for the transracial, although on a purely intellectual level there is no reason, in my opinion, why if a person can change sex if you believe TWAW that they shouldn't be able to change race on the basis of identifying as another race.
Which is surreal
because of course
Race is an artificial construct
Lots of white people have African / Chinese / Indian ancestors
Lots of black people have European ancestors

Kamala Harris is brown because she is half Indian, half Jamaican.

Barack Obama could have identified as white if he'd fancied it
as could Bob Marley
because they each have a white parent

BUT
Nobody can be half female
If you have a Y chromosome, yer ain't female.

no matter where in the world your ancestors come from.

Rooty has returned in the spirit of a child who is allowed back at their table and is being overly pleasant to make up for their earlier tantrum.

However, all other posts aside, here is my thoughts (I'll get to studies when I've done some research).

What got my hackles up earlier is that I work with young ones who are so directly affected by social media it does so much damage. I also work with and know people who have lived LGBT lives from being young and having see their pain of never being accepted or quite fitting in or being judged etc etc.

i'll admit I went from genuinely, and I mean genuinely believing that some of the things I read on here were transphobic, that was a gut reaction though and it was a strong thing to say. I get generally hackled by things such as people playing word games with things that for actual human beings reading this, are massive to their life (ie a sex change, or whether they "feel" they are a woman).

I am a woman despite the many guesses that i'm a man. I'm also not trans, nor do I have any idea how it "feels" to be in the wrong body. but I can imagine. And when I see things saying they can't feel like that, I see red.

Posters would probably recognise me under my previous username on threads about "all women do" "all men do" I hate the division of women and men, and the accusations of misogny. Hate it.

I am very lucky to know many men, great men, some dickheads, but it's the same with the women I know. I also have known an unusually large amount of LGBT people so I suppose my "finger pointing" is actually that all of my 'argument', if you will, comes from human emotion, feelings, and not an issue I've studied. Rather as focusing on the issue of women feeling threatened, I'm immediately jumping to how someone who is trans would feel reading comments like this. But then I'm like that about all social media.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I've had my little kick offs here and there and inspired the Babs (that was a ridiculous point, I'd lost the plot by then) and I will hover around to read this stuff and see if I can understand more about the issue, rather as just how I see it.

I will apologise to the posters who felt I was dishonest, spiteful or anything along those lines, Not my intention at all.

I am a woman despite the many guesses that i'm a man. I'm also not trans, nor do I have any idea how it "feels" to be in the wrong body. but I can imagine. And when I see things saying they can't feel like that, I see red.

I think everyone on here agrees that gender dysphoria exists.

The point, for me, is that the current Equality Act protects people from discrimination if they have a GRC, recognised gender dysphoria. This is as it should be.

The current trans ideology is problematic because it is difficult to define what a woman, and likewise what a man is, without reference to biology. The whole world is set up and works based upon those biological realities, women have current sex based rights upon them.

The point that was being made is not that people don't feel that they are different but more how can you know you feel like a woman if the term itself is undefined. It can only be based upon gender stereotypes that many women reject in any case. They don't feel they are women due to those stereotypes so why should that be the defining factor.

Then add to it the fact that Stonewall says that you can be trans without identifying as those stereotypes anyway.

`it just all adds up to a loss of women's protections and safeguarding issues.

it has nothing to do with not liking transpeople.

Fair play Rooty for coming back and explaining your position so eloquently. From my experience reading these threads, I would say that you have so much in common with many of the women here. Most of us are on the left and have always fought for rights of the oppressed and do not judge anyone who want to live their lives in the way that makes them happy. But the TRA agenda is to obliterate women rights. You need to ask yourself who benefits from that.

@lifeturnsonadime

I am a woman despite the many guesses that i'm a man. I'm also not trans, nor do I have any idea how it "feels" to be in the wrong body. but I can imagine. And when I see things saying they can't feel like that, I see red.

I think everyone on here agrees that gender dysphoria exists.

The point, for me, is that the current Equality Act protects people from discrimination if they have a GRC, recognised gender dysphoria. This is as it should be.

The current trans ideology is problematic because it is difficult to define what a woman, and likewise what a man is, without reference to biology. The whole world is set up and works based upon those biological realities, women have current sex based rights upon them.

The point that was being made is not that people don't feel that they are different but more how can you know you feel like a woman if the term itself is undefined. It can only be based upon gender stereotypes that many women reject in any case. They don't feel they are women due to those stereotypes so why should that be the defining factor.

Then add to it the fact that Stonewall says that you can be trans without identifying as those stereotypes anyway.

`it just all adds up to a loss of women's protections and safeguarding issues.

it has nothing to do with not liking transpeople.

I can see that. You quite often see people talking about it saying they knew because they wanted to have long hair, wear dresses, wear pink etc etc.

You see it now with people idiots not wanting to let kids do certain things in case it makes them want to be the other sex/gay/whatever.

But i think for the vast majority they just "knew" if you will. How? I don't know. But I can't imagine how it must feel to feel like that and then if you do transition (or during transitioning) to be made to feel you aren't welcome, you don't belong, etc etc.

@DialSquare

Fair play Rooty for coming back and explaining your position so eloquently. From my experience reading these threads, I would say that you have so much in common with many of the women here. Most of us are on the left and have always fought for rights of the oppressed and do not judge anyone who want to live their lives in the way that makes them happy. But the TRA agenda is to obliterate women rights. You need to ask yourself who benefits from that.

Far from eloquent - just 'more' eloquent thanearlier....

This is where i'm uneducated I think.

My agenda certainly isn't to obliterate woman's rights, it's to protect the feelings of trans people. In the same way that when I'm routinely called a misogynist, because I don't always agree with everything women say about men.

But then,I'm (relatively) young and didn't know a world where women didn't have certain rights.

@lifeturnsonadime

mumble it's no different. It's identifying as something more oppressed. Google Chloe Jennings White who is both transgender and transabled. I think it is not uncommon to identify into more than one thing.

I think the Rachel Dozeil case shows that there is little appetite for the transracial, although on a purely intellectual level there is no reason, in my opinion, why if a person can change sex if you believe TWAW that they shouldn't be able to change race on the basis of identifying as another race.

Interesting. I listened to M K Fain chatting to Glinner today. She said the RD case and talking about it with her other half was what made her think more deeply about the trans arguments. She is an interesting young woman (US) Her website is here 4w.pub/author/mk/