AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Just to clarify in case it's not clear - as is outlined in the Glinner link - the NHS trust were discussing how they could EXCLUDE (that's the opposite of "inclusion", for those at the back) an LGBT activist and rape survivor from attending hospital appointments because she'd requested a biological female for an intimate procedure.

She found out by coming across her own letters requesting this being described as 'highly discriminatory' and 'unacceptable' when googling.

I mean, hoping the ‘risk of being raped isn’t significantly higher’ is a fairly low bar in the argument to for changing sex specific provision, in my opinion.

I want single sex provision because I prefer it. Dignity, privacy, tailored to my needs.

If society has moved on and we now need gendered/unisex (not sex specific) provision then fine. But let’s ADD it, not scrap what we already have.

Is it my imagination or are most of the “kind” women who want to accommodate males thinking mainly of themselves?

Not your imagination. It is easy to see. That is why the question the way Helen asked it was so important. The focus was on the 'peen' and the fact it was a communal changing room with teenage girls. It is certainly not a 'toilet' question where cubicles can be expected.

This question is about real life scenarios that can occur now in the UK. And pointing out that it is males with a penis. ie. any bepenised individual who believes they have a right to be there.

The 'kind' women do seem to not care about other peoples trauma or how that effects them because they either think of their friends, or some well intentioned person in their life or in their imagination. There is no thinking about females that are so much more vulnerable than the males they seek to accommodate. There is no kindness exhibited towards those females at all from what I have seen on this thread and many others.

@Belleende

I think we are making the same point *@Datun. @LilMidge01* is asking if the penis owner is not doing anything untoward, should their presence in the changing room matter. I think it is entirely unfair to expect any woman, but especially women who have suffered sexual abuse, to put that aside and accept and believe on face value that allowing people with penises into their space is no threat to them, when they are likely to believe that all men and penises are potential sources of harm. They should not be put in a position of having to accept this.

Isn't the language interesting, though. You are using words like unfair, expect women, having to accept, believe, allow them to.

We all appear profoundly aware that we are not in charge of our own lives, our own decisions, and our own spaces.

It's all in the gift of men.

Which is why places like mumsnet are so targeted. Significant numbers of women saying no, at the same time, en masse, is powerful and effective.

It's a no from me.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

Is it my imagination or are most of the “kind” women who want to accommodate males thinking mainly of themselves?

As in “I wouldn’t mind” or “I think that wouldn’t matter”?

Whereas all of us who are worried are thinking about our young daughters or vulnerable women?

As in “I don’t want my 15 year old daughter and her friend being alone in a changing room with a trans woman with male genitalia who may be attracted to women” or “I don’t think it is right that vulnerable women in prisons are forced to live with trans women who have male genitalia and are in prison for sexual assault” or “I don’t want my elderly mother being forced to receive intimate care from a male born”?

Is this just me or is this a trend?

I don’t know Coffee - there’s quite a lot of women on the feminism board who aren’t mothers (I’m not a mother) but can see the damage the ideology causes. I think that’s the heartening thing - so many different experiences of being a woman but all saying no!

I don’t know why some women are so very keen to accommodate men 🤷🏻‍♀️

@LilMidge01

Apologies if I'm missing something (there's a lot of messages on here and references to other threads, other convos) but I don't understand the outrage to the suggestion that trans women with penises use ladies toilets? (happy to engage and discuss and am not just calling everyone who disagrees a bigot fyi). The reasons I don't see this as an issue are:

It seems one argument for the outrage is "sick men might use it as a loophole to exploit women". This seems an odd argument to me as:

• raping and assaulting women is still illegal. so...you still do have the protection of the law on your side

• entering female bathrooms is not the most effective way of being a predator whether you are there legally or not. there are far more convenient ways for sickos to assault/perve on people and get access to young girls/women

• if you're concerned about heterosexual men getting a kick out of seeing women in changing rooms etc....well, you cant control sexual desire and what people get a kick out of- I'm sure there are also plenty of women that get a kick out of seeing other women naked...but point is, you can't police that. If it really bothers you never get changed in a communal space even in a "women's" changing room with no penises...penises have nothing to do with sexual desire

Finally, I do think the people at most risk from bathroom-rules would be if you forced a transwoman to go into a men's bathroom when she presented as female- surely, that is more dangerous opening her up to harassment and assault?
And whilst nto dangerous, if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals you might get very male presenting transmen using women's bathrooms (so the whole exploiting a loophole to gain access argument kind of goes out the window because if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals a man could just say 'oh I'm a transman, I have a vagina', whether he does or not to gain access....

And as I said in the beginning, anyone doing things like this in order to assault/perve on women is breaking other laws anyway, no matter whether the bathroom rules are in their favour!!!

I really genuinely don't understand why this has become so much of an issue and why women are so upset at the thought of transwomen using their bathrooms?

Such a shame that you do not consider the facts and opinions noted by previous posters worthy of your attention, whilst finding the time to share a stream of suppositions and myths with us.

It’s almost as if this video (posted earlier but you will have missed it) was designed as a rebuttal.

Pity you didn’t watch it. That would have saved us all some time.

”The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick”

raping and assaulting women is still illegal. so...you still do have the protection of the law on your side

You might think so, but most rape doesn't get reported or convicted, so there's not really much stopping men/males doing it. There's legal action being brought against the Crown Prosecution Service because of their staggering failings to women.

More info here www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/26/victims-speak-out-ahead-of-legal-challenge-to-cps-policy-rape

*I don’t know Coffee - there’s quite a lot of women on the feminism board who aren’t mothers (I’m not a mother) but can see the damage the ideology causes. I think that’s the heartening thing - so many different experiences of being a woman but all saying no!

I don’t know why some women are so very keen to accommodate men*

I'm not a mother either and I'm in an age group that is supposed to be very encouraging and accepting of the trans women are women narrative.

I have no problems seeing the massive issues with this ideology. I just don't understand the level of mental knots people have to go through, to look at Laurel Hubbard standing in first place on the podium next to two women who have been blatantly cheated out of a higher placing and think this seems like a briliant idea. No problems here. Not forgetting the third female weightlifter who should have got a bronze medal.

@Impatiens

People are up in arms that social media is cracking down on hate speech

Start as you mean to go on @Quaagars? Once again, a very dishonest post.

She's right.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

Righto.

You really do have to question the intelligence of all those swallowing the ridiculous lie that somehow a small group of privileged, fully intact, mostly white heterosexual adult males, with the power and money to influence policy and legislation, are somehow the most 'vulnerable women' on the fucking planet.

More vulnerable and oppressed than any female, person of colour, gay or lesbian (same SEX attracted!), disabled people etc.
More vulnerable than all those who are ACTUALLY fucking vulnerable in the true sense of the word. Those children living in poverty and women forced into prostitution to feed their families, child brides, women and children trafficking for sex, victims of FGM, women all over the world having their reproduction rights removed.

Yet they whine that they are badly done to because people can correctly sex them and that females, rightfully insist on their sex category not being dismantled because these males 'feel' like women!!!!
The absurd demands, threats of violence and rape, scilening of anyone who objects are all signs of their extraordinary male privilege and are all one sided.

No one gives a shit what people call themselves or the clothes they wear.
We object to being forced to pretend that men are women and that on their insistence must remove our boundaries, sex based based protections, our very language and any and all child safeguarding. All to stop adult male hurt feelings.

They are the SAFEST demographic in the UK.

You can shout TWAW all you want. It will never be true.

To 'identify' as something means you KNOW you aren't actually the thing you wish to emulate, because if you were you wouldn't need to identify as it would you?

@Whatsnewpussyhat

You really do have to question the intelligence of all those swallowing the ridiculous lie that somehow a small group of privileged, fully intact, mostly white heterosexual adult males, with the power and money to influence policy and legislation, are somehow the most 'vulnerable women' on the fucking planet.

More vulnerable and oppressed than any female, person of colour, gay or lesbian (same SEX attracted!), disabled people etc.
More vulnerable than all those who are ACTUALLY fucking vulnerable in the true sense of the word. Those children living in poverty and women forced into prostitution to feed their families, child brides, women and children trafficking for sex, victims of FGM, women all over the world having their reproduction rights removed.

Yet they whine that they are badly done to because people can correctly sex them and that females, rightfully insist on their sex category not being dismantled because these males 'feel' like women!!!!
The absurd demands, threats of violence and rape, scilening of anyone who objects are all signs of their extraordinary male privilege and are all one sided.

No one gives a shit what people call themselves or the clothes they wear.
We object to being forced to pretend that men are women and that on their insistence must remove our boundaries, sex based based protections, our very language and any and all child safeguarding. All to stop adult male hurt feelings.

They are the SAFEST demographic in the UK.

You can shout TWAW all you want. It will never be true.

To 'identify' as something means you KNOW you aren't actually the thing you wish to emulate, because if you were you wouldn't need to identify as it would you?

What an ignorant ill informed post. Most of the first section is such nonsense I'm not even going there.

But fwiw, ironically the reason they have to identity as a man rather as just be who they are , is because of this ignorance.

[quote RootyT00t]@Biscuitsanddoombar

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

Righto.[/quote]
It is impossible to change one’s sex.

Also, the focus of this discussion is not on women who fantasise that that is a possibility.

bluebox and biscuit, I didn’t mean that you had to be a mother, I am sorry if it came across that way. I meant more that GC women more often seemed to argue on the behalf of other women who were more exposed to this (as in sports) or vulnerable (prisoners, abuse survivors, elderly or indeed their daughters).

I could personally survive sharing a changing room with a trans woman (even if I wouldn’t like it). I also have a male gynaecologist and I had a mammogram done by a male practitioner. The fact that I am comfortable with that, does not mean that I assume that other women would be comfortable with it, far from it. I am enraged on behalf of the women who are forced to accept something they are unhappy with and have their rights to say no taken away. Especially when they are vulnerable.

Women who are “kind” seem to often argue about what they are comfortable with themselves.

Maybe I am imagining things

@MoleSmokes

Are you aware that is a transphobic statement?

What is the focus of the discussion? Whether women should be able to spout transphobic, ignorant comments under the faux wide eyed but why can't we discuss it? In which case the answer is no.

[quote RootyT00t]@Biscuitsanddoombar

You don't see why feminists (not just feminists but that is who you are talking about) who by their nature want to support women's choices , want to accommodate women undergoing a sex change.

Righto.[/quote]
On the contrary Rooty

Feminists (as that is who referred to) support women's choices and we do accommodate women undergoing a sex change. We work towards all females having the rights they need. If they are transmen, we will still include them.

Or are you referring to males? If so, please tell us again why women need to accommodate males needs? At what point does a male need the protections offered to women to over come their biological differences and vulnerabilities and the sexism that women have suffered from forever?

At what point is it fair that a male can compete in women's sport? And please, do include the evidence that it is fair so we can all read it.

At what point does a male lose their male propensity for the rate of crime and the type of crime males commit so that safeguarding measures should be modified accordingly? And please do include your evidence here too. I am sure that you will be able to show it. The UK prisoner statistics are a great place to start, you do need to go through though and work out which is a female and which is a male.

At what point do males lose the benefits they have accumulated from birth due to sexism so that they can take advantage of provisions that are there to encourage women in their education and careers? And please show us where women had achieved parity with men in their careers and no longer needed any kind of encouragement or assistance.

What is the focus of the discussion? Whether women hmm should be able to spout transphobic, ignorant comments under the faux wide eyed but why can't we discuss it?

The focus of this thread is whether asking a question that directly points to a conflict in safeguarding should be banned on social media.

So Rooty, this is the question:

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

Please take note that this is a question about MALES however they identify.

Wow ScreamingBeans is that screenshot for real?

What it highlights to me is a common aspect of maleness which isn't biological but I suppose a result of patriarchy, gender, and socialisation. See it's really not the beard that screams "man" to me but h* words. The aggressive sense of entitlement. The way that chucking h* body parts and physicality into the conversation works as a veiled threat in a manner that just wouldn't be possible for a woman if the situation were reversed.

Everyone knows what males and dicks are capable of. A woman trying the same trick risks being threatened with violence. Is there an equivalent to "suck my lady dick?".

What an ignorant ill informed post. Most of the first section is such nonsense I'm not even going there

Thanks to Stonewall, we are no longer talking about transexuals, who were mostly gay males with severe dysphoria and internalised homophobia. It was a mental health disorder.

Now any male can simply say, " I'm a woman" and that it. Even if they love their male bodies and keep the suit and beard.

Trans now includes, cross dressers, transvestites, and other non dysphoric males.

@Winesalot

What is the focus of the discussion? Whether women hmm should be able to spout transphobic, ignorant comments under the faux wide eyed but why can't we discuss it?

The focus of this thread is whether asking a question that directly points to a conflict in safeguarding should be banned on social media.

So Rooty, this is the question:

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

Please take note that this is a question about MALES however they identify.

Yes, based on these threads, many of these posters should not allowed to discuss these issues on social media.

Transphobia has no place in the world.

Every racist or homophobe ever would always have lots of evidence why they're not. Doesn't change the facts.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

What an ignorant ill informed post. Most of the first section is such nonsense I'm not even going there

Thanks to Stonewall, we are no longer talking about transexuals, who were mostly gay males with severe dysphoria and internalised homophobia. It was a mental health disorder.

Now any male can simply say, " I'm a woman" and that it. Even if they love their male bodies and keep the suit and beard.

Trans now includes, cross dressers, transvestites, and other non dysphoric males.

Are you under the impression I don't know this?

I applaud this. And again, any poster who thinks we should hark back to the days of it being a mental health disorder should not be allowed to discuss these topics on social media.

[quote RootyT00t]@MoleSmokes

Are you aware that is a transphobic statement?

What is the focus of the discussion? Whether women should be able to spout transphobic, ignorant comments under the faux wide eyed but why can't we discuss it? In which case the answer is no.[/quote]
You are never going to stop women discussing their rights, sorry to disappoint

So instead of these males being happy to express their appearance and celebrate MALE diversity, we have to play along with the notion that their clothes and feelings somehow make them women instead of non conforming men?

I, unlike this thread, don't believe I am entitled enough to stop people doing anything.

I was asked the question and I've answered it.

If someone posted whether a group of racists, homophobes, disablists should be entitled to discuss their views on social media the answer would be a resounding no.

Yet a discussion where transphobia is present under the faux naive wide eyed confusion while kicking the feet from under anyone who disagrees, is OK.

Nasty.