AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

A sign saying that would be just daft and making no point. No one is saying it is not ok to be a woman. And it is a separate discussion to racism. When people start to relate this discussion to discussions about racism they are trying to take it off at a tangent. The issues of racism are important. But entirely separate to this discussion and should not be conflated. Anyone doing that is deliberately trying to derail.

Transwomen would also have the law to protect them wouldn't they? If something happened in the mens?

@LilMidge01

Apologies if I'm missing something (there's a lot of messages on here and references to other threads, other convos) but I don't understand the outrage to the suggestion that trans women with penises use ladies toilets? (happy to engage and discuss and am not just calling everyone who disagrees a bigot fyi). The reasons I don't see this as an issue are:

It seems one argument for the outrage is "sick men might use it as a loophole to exploit women". This seems an odd argument to me as:

• raping and assaulting women is still illegal. so...you still do have the protection of the law on your side

• entering female bathrooms is not the most effective way of being a predator whether you are there legally or not. there are far more convenient ways for sickos to assault/perve on people and get access to young girls/women

• if you're concerned about heterosexual men getting a kick out of seeing women in changing rooms etc....well, you cant control sexual desire and what people get a kick out of- I'm sure there are also plenty of women that get a kick out of seeing other women naked...but point is, you can't police that. If it really bothers you never get changed in a communal space even in a "women's" changing room with no penises...penises have nothing to do with sexual desire

Finally, I do think the people at most risk from bathroom-rules would be if you forced a transwoman to go into a men's bathroom when she presented as female- surely, that is more dangerous opening her up to harassment and assault?
And whilst nto dangerous, if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals you might get very male presenting transmen using women's bathrooms (so the whole exploiting a loophole to gain access argument kind of goes out the window because if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals a man could just say 'oh I'm a transman, I have a vagina', whether he does or not to gain access....

And as I said in the beginning, anyone doing things like this in order to assault/perve on women is breaking other laws anyway, no matter whether the bathroom rules are in their favour!!!

I really genuinely don't understand why this has become so much of an issue and why women are so upset at the thought of transwomen using their bathrooms?

@LilMidge01 you ARE missing something. I would read the thread.

Actually joody racism is very relevant to this discussion.

Black women are often used to justify why males should be allowed into womens spaces. That being unable to change amongst members of the opposite sex is the same black people unable to go onto shops or sit down on a bus.

That because we let black.women and but lesbians in , they cloud the definition of women to the point the next logical step is letting males have it.

And because as I said earlier, unicef campaign fir single sex toilets to allow girls access to school. So if American and British men are safe to pee next to little girls then that's insinuating that foreign men are somehow not...

Finally, just an unrelated point on women who don;t like transwomen....I think we can all agree that whilst I love being a woman it comes with distinct disadvantages- more vulnerable to assault, discrimination etc. So to be honest, convo of dysphoria and being your 'true self' aside, anyone willing to actively give up the benefits of begin considered male to live in this world as a woman, and an even more discriminated against and targeted one at that (a transwoman) is more than welcome to join the sisterhood as far as I'm concerned....how anyone can see them as a 'threat' to their womanhood is beyond me...shrug

@joodyblue thanks for the helpful pointer as to what I am missing and suggesting reading all 406 messages instead rather than even just a sentence of what you consider the actual issue is?

lilmidge so is your answer to the question in the op yes or no? It looks like "yes" but you didn't directly say so?

"Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?"

@Whatwouldscullydo

Transwomen would also have the law to protect them wouldn't they? If something happened in the mens?

Good point. But I can imagine it is a hell of a lot more uncomfortable and also it is generally understood (sadly) that women are more at risk around large groups of men than the other way round...

[quote LilMidge01]@joodyblue thanks for the helpful pointer as to what I am missing and suggesting reading all 406 messages instead rather than even just a sentence of what you consider the actual issue is?[/quote]
You could start with the OP...

@DeaconBoo

lilmidge so is your answer to the question in the op yes or no? It looks like "yes" but you didn't directly say so?

"Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?"

I think its a fair enough question to ask but is phrased clunkily and a bit unclear. I suppose the answer would be "yes, if they identify as women" (it needs that clarifier)

Transwomen with penis people are not the sane sex as women

Many things are split on sex for scientific reasons

To date in the uk we tend not to split things according to gender because there is no scientific rational basis .

For example it is your sex not gender that makes to more liable to experience certain illnesses , more likely to experience sexual violence, more likely to be excluded from top jobs

There are also things where your transgender expression may lead to problems. These problems are often different to sex based problems .

What are the grounds for giving access to ladies loos ( sports etc) to a subgroup of males?

How do we know if they identify as a woman?

@DeaconBoo I've answered the OP's question now- you happy? I think the point I am making then, if I have to be clearer is that the question in itself is not hate speech but it is odd that women are getting so riled up in the first place and such questions insinuate things that aren't particularly issues...

lilmidge and how could one verify if someone identifies as a transwoman? How would you word a policy that could objectively and verifiably differentiate between trans women and men?

So lilmidge

Do you believe gender is binary?
If not Where should none binary people go?

Will you fight equally hard for san bins in the gents ?

What is your rational for treating people on the basis of there say so

Do you think employers to take it on trust if someone says they have a degree?

Should we scarp passport control!

@Whatwouldscullydo

How do we know if they identify as a woman?

You don't need to know. The questions implies all penis-havers can enter. That would be unisex toilets. Toilets are not policed currently and operate on trust that people go to the correct one already...why would that need to change?

LilMidge01
What is your definition of "transwoman"?
As for saying penises have nothing to do with sexual desire. You've lost me there. I doubt the average woman would be comfortable getting undressed next to a fully intact male that she didn't know.

Self ID means if a man sees TW and wishes them harm, they can say say they're a woman too if questioned (no long hair or dress or hormones or anything required) and follow them into the ladies to attack them.

Meaning male violence is being bought into women's spaces and women are being used as human shields.

I am not a fucking human shield, a support human, your care person or a validation tool.

Like a pp just said, if they are attacked in the mens that's against the law and they can report the attacker. Simple. Don't make it our problem subjecting us to further violence from men. Sort out the issue instead of expecting us to do all the fucking work. Yep they know who the women are then - the ones expected to do the hard work and solve it all! Nope.

@LilMidge01 the reasons women are getting so riled up are discussed in this thread. If you don't want to, or have time to read them, fair enough. But don't disparage them if you don't know what we are talking about. If you have read them and want to talk about them there are people who, sadly, have had to engage with these topics for a long time. Like I said - you did miss something

Ok, but how do you personally know if someone is a trans woman or man? What is your thought process?
Is it simply the act of claiming to be male or female that makes someone make or female?

Before if a male entered the room we could challenge or speak staff and have them removed.

Now, we are supposed to let it go incase they say they identify as a woman amd have us charged with a hate crime for asking.

What is a woman? What are they identifying as?

Toilets are socially policed

Further because we know they are sex split , any msn accused of harming a woman would be more at risk of conviction if the assault happened in the ladies

We know , I guess you don't ,for example that only half of uk gym changing areas are unisex yet over 90% of sex assaults happen there

@midgedude

So lilmidge

Do you believe gender is binary?
If not Where should none binary people go?

Will you fight equally hard for san bins in the gents ?

What is your rational for treating people on the basis of there say so

Do you think employers to take it on trust if someone says they have a degree?

Should we scarp passport control!

Hmm good point on non-binary- I guess its a struggle for where they fit into this- I suppose we'd ahve to ask them where they feel most comfortable

I wouldn't say i'm 'fighting hard'- I'm just confused why people are so angry about it- as far as I can see there is no perfect solution for everyone but letting transwomen use womens bathrooms is definitely best for them with not much risk to women that I can see
If people want san bins in the gents- sure! can't see how that would have a bad impact on men

I think I then lose your points in a weird 'whataboutism'....you can't apply rationale on toilets to other areas of life that are (correctly) more stringently policed....?

@DeaconBoo

Ok, but how do you personally know if someone is a trans woman or man? What is your thought process? Is it simply the act of claiming to be male or female that makes someone make or female?

Why do I need to personally know?

Unless they are acting inappropriately surely my knowledge of their gentalia doesn't matter?

You dont think overriding boundaries amd consent is inappropriate behaviour?