AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

God I’m glad the rest of the world isn’t MN

It's like us but less knowledgeable about these issues which are frequently discussed from every angle here by women from all backgrounds. Hope that helps.

So just to clarify: sweetpetrichor 's entire argument against the myriad points raised on here is a factually incorrect interpretation of the EA and some insults?
That's it?
Do they not understand why that doesn't prove anyone wrong?

Doesn’t look like they have changed the mind of the majority here..

Must admit I get a glow of vicarious pride at how invulnerable to TRA hatred MN is.

@Impatiens

Must admit I get a glow of vicarious pride at how invulnerable to TRA hatred MN is.

Totally.

And it's remarks like this:

trans woman can use female facilities and you can do nothing about that, thankfully.

...which make people instantly grasp the issue.

Transgender Trend have shared this this evening:

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

According to the tweet it's due in 29 Jan 2021 (today). Get your voices heard!

Must admit I get a glow of vicarious pride at how invulnerable to TRA hatred MN is.

Same here

Why has the deadline to the toilets consultation been brought forward? Normally they're extended if anything!

Why has the deadline to the toilets consultation been brought forward? Normally they're extended if anything!

Yeah. Not suspicious at all is it.
Too many people complaining about mixed sex toilets.

@NotFabulousDarling

Just catching up. I'm learning so much from this thread (and the one from yesterday). *@MoleSmokes* that video was eye-opening.

I've been getting more and more concerned about the outright nasty punditing on Facebook and Twitter by someone (non-trans, male) who even two years ago I would have considered to be a close friend. At first I agreed with him but then gradually his views started getting more and more radical. Anyone says anything at all and he's kicking off about how much he wants to "Punch A Terf". Anyone (female) questioning the trans ideology is a Terf in his mind. Of course, by definition, men can't be Terfs so that works out well, doesn't it? He now goes out of his way to find GC women, ideally academics (he's an academic too) and attack them on Twitter.

Why is he allowed to speak his mind and publicly say such vile, vitriolic, hateful things about my gender that I was born in and have no control over, and yet I'm not allowed to respond at all without the wrath of Khan coming down on me?

I have a lot to learn about all this, but I feel very angry that he can say what he wants and anyone who even questions it is silenced and accused of "hate speech".

"I've been getting more and more concerned about the outright nasty punditing on Facebook and Twitter by someone (non-trans, male) who even two years ago I would have considered to be a close friend. At first I agreed with him but then gradually his views started getting more and more radical. Anyone says anything at all and he's kicking off about how much he wants to "Punch A Terf". Anyone (female) questioning the trans ideology is a Terf in his mind. Of course, by definition, men can't be Terfs so that works out well, doesn't it? He now goes out of his way to find GC women, ideally academics (he's an academic too) and attack them on Twitter."

Some men have very person reasons for aggressively defending others from what they characterise as "attacks" by women.

These might include, for example, a degree of identification with the perceived "victims" of female meanies.

There are all sorts of reasons that this might be the case.

However, given the vehement (passionate?) reactions of some men there is the possibility, usually overlooked as it is easy to see them simply as misogynists, that they might be gynandromorphophilic.

"Who are gynandromorphophilic men? Characterizing men with sexual interest in transgender women"
K. J. Hsu, A. M. Rosenthal, D. I. Miller and J. M. Bailey

d-miller.github.io/assets/HsuEtAl2015.pdf

Obviously, that might not be true in this case but the market for transgender porn is pretty sizeable so there are plenty of fans out there.

(Meanwhile, other staunch "trans allies" admit that "TWAW - except for relationship purposes". See screenshot. )

"Pornography And Autogynephilia In The Narratives Of Adult Transgender Males"
(Article by Miranda Yardley, transgender identified male - his description and pronouns, FAO Mods!)

mirandayardley.com/en/pornography-and-autogynephilia-in-the-narratives-of-adult-transgender-males/

Miranda and Ffionne Orlander do not use Women's Spaces and are campaigning for "Third Spaces" (which makes them very unpopular within the "trans community"):

"A Plea for Third Spaces for Transmen and Transwomen"

mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

Molesmokes

I live Miranda and Fionne. Amazing people.

Not sure why they are not pushing the petition at the moment with the issue being quite prominent. I’m sure it would get a lot of support as GC people want a solution to the problem.

I think it is interesting how it appears that some posters thinks the question is unkind as it would mean being unkind to trans women without explicitly saying so.

I would be all for being more clear. How about the clarification below?

Do you think it is right that women, including vulnerable women and young girls should have to shower together with fully intact males who have kept their male genitalia (90%) and of which many are attracted to women and claim to be lesbians?

Before you answer, please consider the following. If they weren’t allowed to do that, those males would feel that they weren’t women, they would not feel validated and in many cases their feelings would be hurt.

We should put posters and stickers out (legally of course ) saying " Its ok to be born a woman".

Some people who were allegedly white supremacists have stickers placed saying Its ok to be white. This outrages liberals who call this racist. The statement is not racist obviously as it is ok to be white just as its ok to be black, to be purple etc. This happened in Perth recently and the local mp, first minister and the unco good all fell for it. Police investigation into whether it was a crime. It was not.

Thanks for the heads up on that Maud - I agree, very unusual for the deadline to be brought forward. There was a bit of a campaign from Stonewall and our favourite twitter critic to promote the idea that butch lesbians are copping tons of grief in the ladies (except that most butch lesbians that don’t work for Stonewall say they don’t have a problem) and encouraging people to reflect that to the consultation. Maybe they got too many responses to handle - they are taking forever with the GRA responses.

Isn't it odd how 'bigoted' we all are? How bigoted every single human anatomy and physiology textbook is? How bigoted and ignorant every single teacher of biology is? Hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution is suddenly wrong?

Don’t forget the dogs - even dogs (and tiny babies) can tell the difference between male and female.

Weirdly, an SNP politician yesterday claimed that she has no idea unless someone’s chromosomes are checked

Weirdly, an SNP politician yesterday claimed that she has no idea unless someone’s chromosomes are checked

Oh ffs, do these people not realise how utterly daft they sound?

I'll paraphrase what maniacmagpie wrote that she said to a couple who talked to her during her one woman protests in Cambridge.

'If your parents both came out as trans, are you seriously saying that you would then have no idea which one impregnanted the other?'

We all know what a woman is. We all know what a man is. We all know that there are some people who don't want to conform to regressive stereotypes based on their sex and some of us know such people IRL. But they remain the sex that they are born, regardless of how they choose to identify in later life.

Do these polls get stuck on the 92% 8% ratio?

There were a couple of people on this thread yesterday who were shocked at the postings here. I would direct you to the Feminist board today where they are discussing: a mother asking how to manage her daughter identifying as NB Gender Critical, this is being played out in homes of teenagers across the country. Also Nicola Sturgeon on Twitter calling out Joanna Cherry who is campaigning on behalf of women. The Labour Party who are committed to reform of the gender recognition act. I would also suggest to any woman reading here who is concerned, don't turn away, write an email and send it to school, to your mp.

Also, this today, for people who claim discussion is allowed. Discussion followed by threat, no platform, withdrawal of contract, is not free discussion but coercion. www.spiked-online.com/2021/01/29/the-witch-hunting-of-boyz-magazine/?fbclid=IwAR1K4_e4cYpmreb2gboRo_eEWtzYey3RI6XGyhwgKD1IoS-TMSa8C4r3HeU

@Smileyaxolotl1

Molesmokes

I live Miranda and Fionne. Amazing people.

Not sure why they are not pushing the petition at the moment with the issue being quite prominent. I’m sure it would get a lot of support as GC people want a solution to the problem.

There's a link to their petition gathering dust on the Petitions and Activism board, posted by Hamster who is another sensible TW. I've just bumped it so it should be easy to find, as direct links to petitions aren't allowed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

Kudos to MNHQ for allowing this thread to stay on AIBU.
If people disagree they can scroll on by.
If they want to learn more they can.
How it should be.

There are loads of threads on AIBU I ignore after reading the title or OP if they're not something I want to engage in.
This particular issue is much broader than 'feminism'.

@HijabiVenus

We should put posters and stickers out (legally of course ) saying " Its ok to be born a woman". Some people who were allegedly white supremacists have stickers placed saying Its ok to be white. This outrages liberals who call this racist. The statement is not racist obviously as it is ok to be white just as its ok to be black, to be purple etc. This happened in Perth recently and the local mp, first minister and the unco good all fell for it. Police investigation into whether it was a crime. It was not.

This is not all at equivalent argument. Moreover it puts people off discussing. Please do not deliberately muddy the waters. Women standing up for women are not equivalent to racists. Nor are any of stupid enough not to see through this tactic.

@ListeningQuietly - I agree, this discussion has been deliberately suppressed on other platforms, per the OP and also -- loads of other examples given above :) Moreover, politicians do take note of Mumsnet. So if you are concerned, add your voice.

I guess a sign saying it's ok to be a woman is more equivalent to saying it's ok to be black not white

Apologies if I'm missing something (there's a lot of messages on here and references to other threads, other convos) but I don't understand the outrage to the suggestion that trans women with penises use ladies toilets? (happy to engage and discuss and am not just calling everyone who disagrees a bigot fyi). The reasons I don't see this as an issue are:

It seems one argument for the outrage is "sick men might use it as a loophole to exploit women". This seems an odd argument to me as:

• raping and assaulting women is still illegal. so...you still do have the protection of the law on your side

• entering female bathrooms is not the most effective way of being a predator whether you are there legally or not. there are far more convenient ways for sickos to assault/perve on people and get access to young girls/women

• if you're concerned about heterosexual men getting a kick out of seeing women in changing rooms etc....well, you cant control sexual desire and what people get a kick out of- I'm sure there are also plenty of women that get a kick out of seeing other women naked...but point is, you can't police that. If it really bothers you never get changed in a communal space even in a "women's" changing room with no penises...penises have nothing to do with sexual desire

Finally, I do think the people at most risk from bathroom-rules would be if you forced a transwoman to go into a men's bathroom when she presented as female- surely, that is more dangerous opening her up to harassment and assault?
And whilst nto dangerous, if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals you might get very male presenting transmen using women's bathrooms (so the whole exploiting a loophole to gain access argument kind of goes out the window because if you prescribe bathrooms on genitals a man could just say 'oh I'm a transman, I have a vagina', whether he does or not to gain access....

And as I said in the beginning, anyone doing things like this in order to assault/perve on women is breaking other laws anyway, no matter whether the bathroom rules are in their favour!!!

I really genuinely don't understand why this has become so much of an issue and why women are so upset at the thought of transwomen using their bathrooms?