AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

I totally agree! The level of Hate speech on here, is at ridiculous levels. To all you Hate filled bigots: 1) it’s a protected characteristic and therefore if YOU discriminate you are breaking the law. See? In a democracy people vote in the people who vote in the laws. I just hope none of you are in any kind of Management role. 2) If you think trans women should not go in women’s toilets, where do you suggest trans men go? Genuine question. 3) if you think that the only thing that would allow a predatory male access to a woman to assault her is wearing women’s clothes you are deluded. Most tapes are commuted by people known to the victim for starters. 4) If you think that trans women are living through all they have to live through, just to get into women’s toilets, you are utterly ridiculous. Just take a look at yourselves.

A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act.

No. A legal reassignment to the opposite sex (called, confusingly, gender reassignment) is protected. Read the law.

Women are also capable of predatory behaviour.

And yet I've never felt under threat when alone with another woman - no matter how much taller, heavier or "butch"-er than me, she is.

I have felt under threat when alone with even small men. I have, indeed been assaulted by men. A very large proportion of women have.

Almost all violent assaults, almost all sexual crimes, are committed by men.

@remine

The places concerned with this debate are primarily toilets where there are individual cubicles. In the circumstance of changing rooms, there are also usually private facilities for people who may not feel allocated to either changing room, or for people that are so wrapped up in the stigma around genitalia. The problem is not trans people. In a changing room there is always that risk that there is going to someone with bad intentions. Women are also capable of predatory behaviour.

Yes women can be responsible for predatory behaviour but has already been pointed out men are responsible for 97% of sex crimes.

Of course trans people are not the problem, Self ID is the problem - if we are told that a person is whoever they say they are then we have no right to challenge them on their behaviour. At the moment if a man (by which I mean a biological male presenting in a stereotypically male fashion) walked into the ladies toilets he would be rightly challenged and thrown out.

However, under a policy of Self ID if that same man were to say “I’m a woman” we would not be allowed to refute that statement and remove him from the area. Surely you can see how predators will take advantage of those circumstances?

And as for the “oh predators will always find a way” argument then why do we bother locking our windows and doors to keep burglars out? After all they will find a way, so why bother deterring them?

If you think trans women should not go in women’s toilets, where do you suggest trans men go? Genuine question.

Not sure what this has to do with it. I don’t mind if a woman who thinks she’s a man uses the ladies myself.

Post above mine details a whole lot better by @NancyDrawed

A mixed shared sex space is the answer so nobody is revealed.

If you think trans women should not go in women’s toilets, where do you suggest trans men go? Genuine question.

They can use the ladies' - they are women.

Genuine answer.

If you think that trans women are living through all they have to live through, just to get into women’s toilets, you are utterly ridiculous. Just take a look at yourselves

Again, many aren't living through anything. Its not a requirement at all. Many are perfectly happy with their bodies.

Completely agree with @CaveMum

SelfID is a very scary issue. And one that many predators can and will take advantage of.

I'm saying that there's a very sinister undertone to all the 'women just LOOK a certain way, you can TELL who's A REAL WOMAN' that erases anyone (including those who are biologically female) who doesn't fit these specific Definitely A Woman guidelines.

It's all part of the humongous misogyny/sexist idealism and stereotype-glorifying that is gender and it's belief system. They've built this incredible lie, where gender is 'being open minded, whilst sex fits you in a singular box'.

We all know the opposite is true - it's gender that has male and female ticking boxes to say 'this is the categories to fit women, down to what you like, how you think and your general personality'. It's evolved from the past, where men decided that your biological sex did have an influence on your behaviour as well as your physical strength. It was when women started fighting back from that bullshit nonsense that gender was born. If we can't say being a women makes you different in your brain by your sex, well damn well sure find some way of making LadyBrain some form of truth.

Sadly, it's worked. Forcing people into male/female stereotypes according to religious or old-science beliefs stopped working, but in this brave new world if you scream bigot enough times then you either submit or be exiled.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Its not women reducing women to dresses and make up

I'm not talking about dresses or makeup, I'm talking about comments like these from PPs:

obviously male purely based on height, jaw line & waist/hip ratio
Cool, so very tall women with big jaws and narrow hips should just fuck off then.

be it how they carry themselves, their body structure, their voice.
... and add women with unfeminine posture, body shape or voice to that list, too.

It is extremely easy to tell the sex of a person just by looking at them, and especially if they move or speak.
Not according to the reports of non-feminine presenting women I've seen who've been harassed for not looking 'like a woman' despite being what we'd call a butch lesbian 10 years ago.

So regardless of whether trans people 'pass' or not, this approach to GC women suddenly regarding themselves as fucking biological-sex-sniffer-dogs is a) weird as fuck and b) relies on a very specific visual reference for what a woman is. Which even if you're only arsed about XX women and take the entire trans argment out of it, is a fucking strange and restrictive way to view what is or isn't acceptably womanly.

I don’t mind if a woman who thinks she’s a man uses the ladies myself

Me neither.

@remine

The places concerned with this debate are primarily toilets where there are individual cubicles. In the circumstance of changing rooms, there are also usually private facilities for people who may not feel allocated to either changing room, or for people that are so wrapped up in the stigma around genitalia. The problem is not trans people. In a changing room there is always that risk that there is going to someone with bad intentions. Women are also capable of predatory behaviour.

Toilets, prisons, hospital wards and other medical services, , refuges, swimming pools, saunas, changing rooms in shops.........

So many women’s spaces where women don’t want a man with a penis. Whatever his intentions.

Funny you should use the words sniffer dog, I've heard that many animals appear to be able to tell the difference between male and female humans.

@Blubellsarebells

If your transwomen friends cared as much about your feelings of safety and being respected as you do about theirs, they would ve campaigning for third spaces. Why aren't they? It seems like the obvious solution but nobody on that side ever mentions it. Its almost like male feelings are more important than women's dignity and boundaries.

They are, though

Most transwomen keep their cocks.

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means.

@SweetPetrichor gender identity is not covered by the equality act at all.
Are you thinking of gender reassignment?
Gender reassignment entitles that person the same rights afforded to someone of the same sex as themselves who has not gone through the process of gender reassignment. So a male who has gone through gender reassignment is not disadvantaged compared to a male who has not when applying for a job role.

Sex is covered by the equality act so that one sex is allowed private spaces away from the other sex, and has the same right as another person of the other sex. So a female is not disadvantaged compared to a male when applying for a job role.
Do you understand now?

@whoamongstus

What do you think makes a woman, beyond biology, physiology and chromosomes?

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means

Sweetie we're talking about SEX based rights. Don't lecture others when you still can't get gender and sex sorted in your mind.

@Supersimkin2

Most transwomen keep their cocks.

And I can understand why!

It honestly baffles me that in 2021 its deemed progressive that males who dont conform to bullshit standards of masculinity are told they're women (reminds me of those old insults run/jump/throw/cry like a girl) and then told that if they remove their penis then they're definitely women.

It's fucking horrific.

I'm saying that there's a very sinister undertone to all the 'women just LOOK a certain way, you can TELL who's A REAL WOMAN' that erases anyone (including those who are biologically female) who doesn't fit these specific Definitely A Woman guidelines.

I am a biologically female woman who rarely confirms to the stereotypic Definitely A Woman guidelines - partly due to my biology, being tall and chunky, with long arms, wide shoulders and big feet. I have been misgendered many times, called 'sir', gently challenged in the ladies. Strangely enough I do not feel erased by this, not offended. It is part of the real world. But the instant I spoke in response, or often even before I spoke, just by my moment in response to being addressed, the other person recognised that I am female. And on every occasion, whether it was a man or a woman, they acknowledged their mistake.

That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are

There is so much to unpack here. Yes, predatory men are an issue here but we have single sex spaces to keep those men out. No matter how good your intentions are in moving to 'gender neutral or gender segregated spaces', they still allow predatory men access to females when they are vulnerable and still lead to women and girls being assaulted and this IS happening. If you are arguing for the removal of sex segregates spaces, then you need to have the intellectual and moral honesty to accept your part in the responsibility for these assaults, because they are happening due to a change you are advocating for. At the very least be honest about that. Be honest about the fact that you are okay with that to achieve your 'greater good'. Its a revolting position to take but at least you would have the honesty to own it.

Your second point seems to be saying that transwomen, that is any male who self-proclaims they are a women, is now a women in exactly the same way a woman is. But the onus is on YOU to prove this very large claim. Do you have evidence that all men, as soon as they say they are women, suddenly present the same risk of sexual assault to women as female women do?

@wildraisins

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means.

@wildraisins

Its even sadder that after more than 100 years past the Suffragette movement, women are still being treated like they're hysterical loons for wanting to have and protect their own rights.

What does trans mean, since you're here to educate us?