AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

I'm interested if anyone on this thread can find me one reliable example (just one) of when a trans woman has actually assaulted a cis woman in a female changing room.

How can you tell the difference between a transwoman and a predatory male?

@wildraisins

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means.

If you are able to provide some explanations to those of us who don't understand it would be appreciated!

What does it mean to have a gender identity? What is it to 'live as a woman'?

Give it a rest.

I haven't seen a trans woman naked. But after all of the operations etc. can you always/reliably tell?

Do you realise that the vast majority or trans women still have their penises and have no intention of getting rid of them. So how exactly would you be able to tell they weren't male?

Surely a third mixed sex space is the answer?

Why aren't the trans community campaigning for this, rather than (particularly TW) trying to force their way into spaces where they know they might make females in there uncomfortable?

Because TRAs (trans rights activists) don't want this. It doesn't validate them. They want to be accepted as WOMEN - not as transgender women - as WOMEN. Why should they have to use a third, gender-neutral space, when they are WOMEN?

Most genuinely trans people of both sexes would be happy with this compromise. TRAs are not.

It is all about control.

It is extremely easy to tell the sex of a person just by looking at them, and especially if they move or speak.....Not according to the reports of non-feminine presenting women I've seen who've been harassed for not looking 'like a woman' despite being what we'd call a butch lesbian 10 years ago

They were harassed for not looking feminine enough...so the harassers knew they were women! Nobody mistook them for men and then told them they didn't look sufficiently womanly...at least try and keep up with yourself if no-one else.

So yes, it is extremly easy to determine a persons sex just from looking at them. Even small children can do it with ease. We can tell the difference between a tall woman with a large jaw, and a man dressed as a woman.

"I'm interested if anyone on this thread can find me one reliable example (just one) of when a trans woman has actually assaulted a cis woman in a female changing room."
Have you honestly never heard of Karen white?
Not a changing room.
A prison.
Where those women were trapped and had no choice.

[quote BrumBoo]@whoamongstus

What do you think makes a woman, beyond biology, physiology and chromosomes?[/quote]
But what if you're a woman who doesn't fit the physiology mark, though? My sister's got no hips, no tits to speak of, and broad shoulders. Should she be cast out of the toilets with the trans women for not meeting your guidelines?

If you want to stick to the definition of chromosomes, fine. But the weird obsession with whether or not you can tell someone is biologically female because of their physiology has further reaching effects than just supposedly supporting the argument about trans people, and it directly harms women with XX chromosomes too. Which is why I find it so fucking baffling that (especially on GC twitter) it seems to be a big thing at the moment.

wildraisins what do you mean by 'gender rights?

Regardless of how a person looks or identifies, they are still male or female. At what point does a male adult - who now identifies as female - lose the statistical risk of offending?

This one

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814599/Transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-Morrisons-female-toilets.html

@BrumBoo

What are these rights that women want to protect though?

How many women have been assaulted by a trans woman?

What is the fear and where does it come from?

People are scared of what they don't understand. There is a plethora of resources about gender and sex online, I don't need to educate anyone here because you are all presumably intelligent people who can go away and read about it if you want to.

I am simply tired of having these debates with people who lack understanding and probably have never actually spoken to a real trans person.

@DickKerrLadies

Funny you should use the words sniffer dog, I've heard that many animals appear to be able to tell the difference between male and female humans.

Yes funny how dogs that have been shown to be nervous around males continue to be nervous around transwomen.

Also facial recognition software is transphobic as it routinely identifies people according to their biological sex www.forbes.com/sites/jessedamiani/2019/10/29/new-research-reveals-facial-recognition-software-misclassifies-transgender-non-binary-people/?sh=89ac0a8606b5

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

Some statistics here, I have only skim read though as I need to leave for work.

All these "what ifs" and "what about this person" and "I know loads of trans people and..." blah blah blah.

What is needed is a third space for trans and NB people. That's it. The end. Why is this not an acceptable solution? Why is this resisted so ferociously by the trans lobby? That's the real question,

@dadshere

I haven't seen a trans woman naked. But after all of the operations etc. can you always/reliably tell?

Most trans women don't have genital surgery. They may have breast enhancement surgery or facial feminisation, hence the often coined phrase 'girl dick' as in 'transphobes can suck my girl dick' used by a number of TRAs.

I am simply tired of having these debates with people who lack understanding and probably have never actually spoken to a real trans person

Again do you mot realise that there is zero requirement to be trans other than their say so.

You don't even need hormones ir surgery for a grc.

I'm interested if anyone on this thread can find me one reliable example (just one) of when a trans woman has actually assaulted a cis woman in a female changing room

Is it just about assaults?

Growing up female it has been ingrained into me to be wary of male people. I feel less comfortable being in a state of undress in front of a male than a female.

I would get changed in front of my mum but not my dad, and there is not even the remotest chance of my dad assaulting me.

A lot of women feel less comfortable and/or vulnerable undressed around a male person even if that male person poses no risk. It’s about privacy too. Does that not matter?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

It is a valid question. But What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

The elephant in this particular room is that the problem here is men. It's that transgender people feel too threatened with male violence to use male facilities. Ergo the problem is men.

This is not women's issue to fix. We are not support humans. We are not here to sacrifice our own dignity, privacy and safety to affirm the identities of those who are not female (and they're not). They are trans women; and yes, it is usually trans women, not trans men, who are making this particular noise. They have a different biology, therefore a different set of physical and safeguarding needs.

I would advocate for a third space. That's a space I'd also use in circumstances of needing to use facilities alongside my young son. I'd not use it if I were alone. And if I use the reasoning that I've been the victim of both male abuse and rape, I am 'weaponising my trauma' (which ranks amongst the most offensive phrases I've ever heard uttered).

'Third space' isn't good enough for the vociferous activists, however, and in this regard you have to ask yourself why not. If simply ensuring the privacy, safety and security of trans people isn't sufficient, exactly what is it the activists do want?

The answers are not necessarily comfortable.

What a brilliant post.

'm interested if anyone on this thread can find me one reliable example (just one) of when a trans woman has actually assaulted a cis woman in a female changing room

Oh for goodness sake! If you allow men in they attack women. A FOI request revealed that nearly all recorded sexual assault in England in changing rooms were in 'gender neutral;' changing rooms. No surpoise. THat is why we had sex segregated changing rooms . To stop that happening.

it’s a protected characteristic and therefore if YOU discriminate you are breaking the law. See?

I don't think your tone matches your understanding of the law. Exceptions in the EA allow discrimination in some circumstances, obviously in the case of sport for sex, but also for privacy.

If you think trans women should not go in women’s toilets, where do you suggest trans men go? Genuine question.

More unisex facilities are necessary for a variety of people for a variety of reasons. This is not a difficult problem to solve.

if you think that the only thing that would allow a predatory male access to a woman to assault her is wearing women’s clothes you are deluded.

Again, your tone is not appropriate given your lack of knowledge of the subject. The logical conclusion of changes to the law is not men using women's facilities, but the complete loss of single sex facilities. There is no requirement for anyone to change anything about their appearance or behaviour to be trans, or even to claim to be male or female.

If you think that trans women are living through all they have to live through, just to get into women’s toilets, you are utterly ridiculous. Just take a look at yourselves.

Again, your knowledge of the topic seems dated. There is currently no objective definition of 'trans woman' and there is no need to identify as either male or female to be trans.

Wildraisins I linked to one up there.

Was a toilet.

The wee girl was only 10

So yes, it is extremly easy to determine a persons sex just from looking at them. Even small children can do it with ease. We can tell the difference between a tall woman with a large jaw, and a man dressed as a woman.

I have a transwoman friend, and a very butch lesbian friend

My 3 year old knows my lesbian friend is a woman and uses she/her pronouns
And he gets a bit confused when we address transfriend as she/her, because he can tell by looking that she is male, but is learning that manners mean we call her 'she'

@wildraisins

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights and just raising general awareness and understanding of what trans is and what it means.

I think it’s even sadder that it takes issues like this to realise that despite being a binary species since before the dawn of time 50% of the population are still regarded by many of the remaining 50% of the population as lower status beings who should be self effacing, subservient, accept their inferiority, and never ever question those whose random genetic lottery win has automatically provided them with a get out of jail card to cover oppression, exploitation and denigration.

Those of us who thought we had done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of female emancipation and working towards equality are only just beginning to realise that we are still digging out the foundations, and nowhere near raising the roof.