AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

Re the number of Transwomen being killed, I stole this from another MN thread about 2 years ago so it is a little out of date (I believe there was one Transwoman murdered in 2019, but again absolutely no evidence that she was murdered BECAUSE she was trans):

According to this source transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/, 8 transgender people have been murdered in the UK since 2008

Their list (taken from various PDFs on their site):

2015
Vikki Thompson - not murder but accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison

Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733

2013
Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984

2012
Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence

2011
Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598

2010
Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570

2009
Andrea Waddell
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."

Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"

So in summary, not 8 murders but 6, of which:

3 were sex workers killed because of their sex work
2 were killed for financial reasons
1 was killed by another transgender person

"A total of 152 UK sex workers have been murdered since 1990. According to the charity National Ugly Mugs, 85% of street prostitutes have experienced violence and only 25% of victims are willing to report crimes to the police."

news.sky.com/story/sex-workers-still-vulnerable-10-years-after-ipswich-murders-10679614

There were around 571 homicides in the last year in England & Wales, that's approximately 1 per 100,000 people.

Thus over the 9 years 2008 to 2016, given six homicides, that implies a transgender murder rate of 0.67 per year, assuming transgender people are as likely to be killed as the rest of the country. That would suggest that there are only 67,000 transgender people in England & Wales.

However, the LOWEST estimate for transgender people is 0.1% (so around 57,000), and GIRES says it is 0.2% at the very minimum (so around 114,000).

Obviously given the tiny numbers you can't be too specific with these statistics, we aren't taking about a population (of murdered trans people) so much as vanishingly rare cases.

With regard to sex work, there are apparently around 72,800 sex workers in the UK of which 4% (approx 2900 are transgender). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extent

Given the overall sex worker murder rate of ~6 per year, that implies 1 in every 12,000 sex workers will be murdered in any given year. Therefore given the 2900*9 = 26,100 transgender sex worker years in the period under study, we'd expect 26100/12000 = 2.175 murders of transgender sex workers. The total of 3 is very slightly above average in that respect, however statistically it's not even remotely significant (5 would be significant at the 95% confidence interval). I am not 100% clear if the case of Vanessa Santillan is included within the figures, as Santillan was murdered not by a client, but a jealous husband.

Also note that in general 1 in 780 people are sex workers (and sex workers have a homicide rate 8 times higher than the general population) but as many as 1 in 20 transgender people may be sex workers, so there will be a higher rate of murder.

Moreover, all of the murderers were biologically male (and indeed most transgender people are male). The male murder rate is around 75% higher than the female murder rate in the country as a whole.

@coldsunnydays

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU

That's the problem with this debate. There is nothing you can ask, nothing about women's safety, nothing about women's privacy and dignity. nothing about the women who have been sexually assaulted solely and entirely because of the move from sex segregated spaces to 'gender identity' without people deliberately and dishonestly misinterpreting this as 'anti-trans' to justify their unwillingness to have their views explored. You can only take this position if you have absorbed a view that women literally do not matter. So the debate can never focus on the impact on women, women literally do not matter.
Its like women don't exist to these people, like women literally do not matter. Nothing that happens to them, nothing matters. Everything that happens to them, everything negative that IS happening to women is perfectly acceptable collateral damage to support males who want everyone to believe they are literally female in every respect. This is only ok if you literally believe women do not matter.

YY, see also the poster who wanted this thread moved to it's 'proper place' as if AIBU isnt the place for women to ask questions about things that concern them.

AKA - "Back in your box, ladies, you know you're not allowed out of your designated areas."

Ah yes, the old 'WE CAN JUST TELL' has begun. My favourite piece of nonsense that gets trotted out whenever this conversation is had.

It is funny that the most vocal activists in this debate focus on access to women’s spaces. I don’t see many TRA’s advocating for access to men’s spaces for transmen. Now why might that be......?

because the narrative tells the mainly young girls transitioning to male that they have suddenly gained privilage over the mainly older 'lesbian' transwomen who are doing the shouting, and they are told to STFU and help the poor oppressed ones instead, from what Ive gathered from many trans groups

Ah yes, the old 'WE CAN JUST TELL' has begun. My favourite piece of nonsense that gets trotted out whenever this conversation is had

You would not be insinuating that passing or any form of transition is necessary would you?

@Motherdare

and knows in their heart of hearts they are a female

This is nonsense. No woman knows in her heart of hearts she is female. She merely knows her anatomy. The rest is just gender and upbringing and life experience.

No transwoman “knows in her heart she is female”. They simply want to be one. Not the same.

This.

I am a woman.

I don't know what being a woman "feels" like.

I just am one.

The world has no place for transphobia.

Yes, but sadly it has plenty of room for misogyny and pretending that mentioning womens rights is instantly transphobic regardless of the sex-based issues involved.

A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new!

Doesn't mean it's fair or right in many cases.

A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act.

What about the instances where sex based rights are contradictory to gender based rights?

It doesn't matter what surgeries they have or haven't had. It's nobody else's business.

It doesn't matter to you. In the wider world, to many other women, for many different reasons, it does matter.

Saying you believe yourself female has absolutely no meaning when that person has grown up with the same male privilege and entitlements as those who never change gender. It's that exact male demands that they bring with them, to be allowed to control women's thoughts, opinions and rights by claiming they know what it is to be a woman. Yet a grand number of zero people have actually managed to explain what exactly it is to feel female (and therefore be allowed under any and all circumstances to use our spaces, play our sports, be put in our prisons and so forth), as opposed to be female.

I don't feel like a woman. I don't identify as a woman. I never have, biology aside. My interests would probably be classified as typically male.

Doesn't make me a bloke though.

A third space would also make transpeople more vulnerable to violence. We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average. What's to stop malicious people targeting third spaces?

This is astonishing. You acknowledge that predatory people will take advantage of loopholes to attack people, yet you think a loophole should be created to allow sexuallly predatory men access to naked women? It's like Me Too, and all the long history of male sexual violence and sex abuse scandals never happened.
Again, the view expressed by this poster is really underpinned by a view that women just don't matter. So of course they need to step aside and accept risk for anyone else.

A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new!

No, under UK law they don't necessarily have that right.

[quote costco]@Jellyslice indeed they are unnecessary surgeries. So don't have them, and lobby for trans spaces. A man dressing / passing as a woman has very little to do with an actual woman and has zero business walking into my changing room. There's apicture of a woman on it. You're not a woman. End of.[/quote]
sorry btw I didn't mean to sound aggressive towards you, I mean't "you" as the general you, i.e. anyone who is not a woman.

@Lifeinaonesie

The issue really is why is 'presenting as a man/woman' even a thing. What does that mean? Why does dress, hobbies, haircuts denote anything about sex at all? Surely breaking down those issues rather than medicating and chopping up body parts would be a better route for real change.

There is a difference between “presenting” and “being”.

Wanting to wear a dress or trousers is a matter of personal choice. But someone’s personal choice about how they want to “present” themselves to the world should not trump my right to feel safe, and to be safe, because I am a woman.

It’s really as simple as that. I don’t have any choice over my biology and the vunerability that imposes on me because I am physically weaker than a man so I , and the other 50% of the population to whom this simple fact applies, should not be in the situation of being told that someone else’s feelings are more important than our genetics. I don’t present as a woman, I am a woman.

The places concerned with this debate are primarily toilets where there are individual cubicles. In the circumstance of changing rooms, there are also usually private facilities for people who may not feel allocated to either changing room, or for people that are so wrapped up in the stigma around genitalia. The problem is not trans people. In a changing room there is always that risk that there is going to someone with bad intentions. Women are also capable of predatory behaviour.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Ah yes, the old 'WE CAN JUST TELL' has begun. My favourite piece of nonsense that gets trotted out whenever this conversation is had

You would not be insinuating that passing or any form of transition is necessary would you?

...what? I couldn't give a shit if someone passes or not, to be honest. Not my business.

I'm saying that there's a very sinister undertone to all the 'women just LOOK a certain way, you can TELL who's A REAL WOMAN' that erases anyone (including those who are biologically female) who doesn't fit these specific Definitely A Woman guidelines.

Excellent post Cavemum

Its not women reducing women to dresses and make up

I'm loving your posts coldsunnydays.

I haven't seen a trans woman naked. But after all of the operations etc. can you always/reliably tell?

A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act.

The protected characteristics are sex and gender reassignment. They are not the same, just as the protected characteristics of age and race are not the same.

Neither gender not gender identity are a protected characteristic.

Surely a third mixed sex space is the answer?

Then those who want single sex male and single sex female use those, and transwomen, transmen, along with those men and women who are happy with mixed sex facilities can use the third, mixed sex space. If a TW feels unsafe in the correct facility for their sex, they can use the mixed. If a TM feels uncomfortable in the correct facility for their sex and unsafe in the men's, they can use the mixed. All the people who think it is transphobic to want to keep single sex changing facilities as single sex can use the mixed facilities too.
This removes the problem of a possible 'outing' of a transman or transwoman. Everyone gets equal choice, too, rather than (as was pointed out by a PP) male people getting the choice of where they go versus women who don't want to / can't risk being in a mixed sex space being prevented from using the facilities that were meant to be single sex.

Why aren't the trans community campaigning for this, rather than (particularly TW) trying to force their way into spaces where they know they might make females in there uncomfortable?

And as for the 'genital checks' comments, while I agree that on photographs there are people who can pass as the opposite sex, the way people move and the way they conduct themselves if someone disagrees with them tells an observer an awful lot. No genital checks needed!!

As far as I am concerned, I feel that trans individuals should have their own set changing area. The same as how males and females have their own changing area.

As for women being silenced on social media over this it speaks volumes. It really does.

Women have a right to privacy and safety. Considering so many females experience sexual violence in their life at one point or another having a man in the changing rooms could be very distressing for them.

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable me or any of my children being in a changing room with anyone who isn't a genuine female.

If anyone wants to label me transphobic due to what I've said then up to whoever to believe that if they want/choose to. I just feel female only spaces should be specifically for females and that a separate area should be set out for trans people.

Women are also capable of predatory behaviour
This old trope took a lot longer to appear than I thought it would.