AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

Many people need unisex facilities for various reasons and these should be available.

I would also be interested to know what it means to 'genuinely live as a woman' because I don't understand what that means if it doesn't involve female biology. I don't know how I live as a woman. Other than stereotypes of course, but I know trans isn't about stereotypes.

That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

Has anyone explained what living as a woman means?

I keep hoping someone will explain this so I'll be able to make the necessary adjustments if I'm not doing it correctly.

I've often wondered what "feeling like a woman" means too but I haven't asked because I feel certain the answer will mean I have to hand in my membership card to the uterus havers club.

Its offensive to ask transgender people to use private separate facilities

So if a transwoman doesn't want to use private facilities, then she should use the men's. She already has one more option than I do: nobody's giving me the luxury of a private changing room.

I am sick to fucking death of this.

Trans women are not women
If they were they would not be trans

Men have never been able to ‘become’ women, and nobody with a male body is ‘actually’ a woman. They feel that they are, which is up to them (and I have no hostility about it), but it doesn’t change reality.

@nanbread

A third space would also make transpeople more vulnerable to violence.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average.

What's to stop malicious people targeting third spaces?

I would like to see lobby groups and sm armies putting their weight behind this problem I.e male violence. If that's really the concern.

Creating more risk for women and girls is not an acceptable solution to the safety of TW.

If trans people want same gender facilities fine, but same sex should not be removed to achieve that

YANBU that it shouldn't be banned or automatically shouted down.

However, I think in discussing safety in changing rooms, showers, and similar, there should be more discussion on how these spaces are rarely designed with safety in mind. A wider conversation to have on safety in these spaces which yes should include risks of male violence among others that puts people at risk and puts people, particularly the more vulnerable, off from fully engaging in public life. The places we're most vulnerable in public needs more thought than is currently required.

It's a bit like people who live in areas of the least immigration are the most anti immigration.

And like the changing room debate, it's a little more complicated than that. Yes, significantly majority White British areas were more likely to vote Leave and are more likely to support stricter immigration laws, but it's mostly areas where this is true and there are wider social issues like high poverty, high unemployment, and have a lower proportion in highly skilled or managerial work. There are wider systemic issues involved than just exposure to other types of people and it's rarely as neat as media likes to portray. I live in an area with a lot of immigration and still have 3 elected ex-UKIP councillors that think harrassing hotels with refugees is part of their jobs...

Men have always been exposed to women, hasn't really meant they all see the discrimination, impact, or that our feelings are as our valid as theirs. It takes more than exposure - and that exposure might not lead to the same line of thinking.

There needs to be more consideration than just having it all be a free for all or about who people are in their hearts which is very individualistic idea that is terrible to put at a societal level. My relationships with trans people, including my trans ex, has made me more aware of the needs to really consider these spaces. I don't think those who just want to change the word on the door or open it all have actual vulnerable people in mind. It's just point scoring for them, it's not likely them whose been in a toilet or changing room and thought that something terrible could happen and no one would know for hours.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average

Biggest load of bollocks ever. As false as the suicide stats that get used as emotional blackmail. Like the ridiculous one I read that trans women are more likely to be sexually assaulted than females. Only men could make up those stats.

But they're not considered male feelings, they identify as women so it's other women's feelings

The person is male. Those feeling are therefore a male person's feelings.

Personally, there ought to be a 'genderless' facility available

You mean single sex then. There is also no such thing as biological gender.

Why is it anti trans to protect women's safe spaces?

Exactly my question.

@blendedmummy

YANBU to think they shouldn’t be banned as that’s a bit extreme, but YABU to be transphobic

Please do point out specifically what was transphobic.

@nanbread

A third space would also make transpeople more vulnerable to violence.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average.

What's to stop malicious people targeting third spaces?

Average what?

but trans women are women,

What makes them women?

The key thing that comes up again and again in this debate is “validation”. A third space for those that are non-binary or do not identify with their biological sex (and anyone else that wants to use it) is the easiest and most obvious option. But for many TRAs that is not acceptable, and therein lies the problem.

Why is it not acceptable? Because it doesn’t play along with their fantasy that they really are a woman/man. In some cases it is also about power - knowing that they are in a position of power over those around them and getting off on violating other peoples boundaries.

It is funny that the most vocal activists in this debate focus on access to women’s spaces. I don’t see many TRA’s advocating for access to men’s spaces for transmen. Now why might that be......?

@SomewhereInbetween1

That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

If transwomen are women why use trans before the word woman. If they are women, they haven't transitioned so why use trans?

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU

That's the problem with this debate. There is nothing you can ask, nothing about women's safety, nothing about women's privacy and dignity. nothing about the women who have been sexually assaulted solely and entirely because of the move from sex segregated spaces to 'gender identity' without people deliberately and dishonestly misinterpreting this as 'anti-trans' to justify their unwillingness to have their views explored. You can only take this position if you have absorbed a view that women literally do not matter. So the debate can never focus on the impact on women, women literally do not matter.
Its like women don't exist to these people, like women literally do not matter. Nothing that happens to them, nothing matters. Everything that happens to them, everything negative that IS happening to women is perfectly acceptable collateral damage to support males who want everyone to believe they are literally female in every respect. This is only ok if you literally believe women do not matter.

transwomen are women

No, they are not. Not legally (check the GRA, and the Equalities Act) nor biologically.

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU

This thread is about women's rights and the ability to discuss them on social media. If it were anti trans the post would be deleted.

but trans women are women

Er no; they are NOT!

Go and look at yourself in the mirror. Don't drop your eyes. And ask yourself if you really believe that to be true....

Than average women
However the data was gathered in American continent and the confounding factor was occupation as over there transwomen were often prostitutes

The murder rate for women and transwomen prostitutres was the same

So the solution is to ensure they have proper job opportunities not access to women's loos

@SomewhereInbetween1

That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

If women asking questions causes violence your problem is with the people who are violent, not the women losing their rights.

A penis is not a females sex organ. If you allow male bodied people to use women's services you have no way to keep predatory men out.

but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

Without any definition of trans women or women, this makes no linguistic sense.