AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@Blubellsarebells It apparently is anti-trans to say that, so yes, we have a huge problem.

@JellySlice

Of the people I see during a normal day, there are a vanishingly small number who I would know intimately enough to understand their gender presentation.

The ones I recognise as trans are ones that are either visibly or audibly trans. It would be foolish to assume that these are the only ones that exist. I often find myself in a situation where I think a woman looks a bit "manly" and I idly consider whether they are trans and I am not sure either way.

Maybe you are genuinely better and more confident in spotting transexuals than me and this is a non-issue. You might also be experiencing confirmation bias though.

This doesn't matter when it's a game that I'm paying with myself. When it's enshrined in policy you do need a method of identification. Imagine how well "your voice is too deep and your face too angular, show me your vagina or use the men's room" will go down.

And at what point does a man 'become' a woman?! The removal of a penis and testes? The taking of hormones? Simple identification? So Phillip is a man on a Monday and therefore an oppressor and member of the patriarchy, but he wears heels and a dress on Wednesdays and suddenly is the most oppressed person ever?!

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman.

Good point. Similarly, I know a LOT of men, and none of them have any intention of raping or abusing a woman. So why not let them use the women's changing rooms too!

So are you saying womanhood and access to women's spaces is a 'club' defined by feelings in your head?

No. Entirely the opposite. The only way to be a woman is to be an adult female human.

I am saying that it is disgusting to say that to access women's spaces you have to damage your body. Like an obscene initiation that only applies to some joiners.

The only way to access female spaces is to be female. We are not a club that non-females can join if they meet some bizarre conditions.

OP I think it is a reasonable question to ask, and one for people to answer what their views are.

Mine are that if they have undergone gender reassignment and they no longer have a penis, they should be allowed in.

@MrsHusky

No she shouldn't be banned but, its not THAT black and white as some people are saying.

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman, and i have absolutely no issue in sharing shower/bathroom space with them, and have done at various conventions where we've used the spaces swimming pools/public toilets.

Personally, there ought to be a 'genderless' facility available for those who dont want to be in the male/female spaces, or lockable cubicles provided now.

There are enough non-binary folk around who aren't trans, but who still dont want to be in their bio-gender bathrooms that society ought to adapt to be inclusive.

“I know a lot of trans women...not one of them has any kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman”

I’m sure they don’t. By the same token I know a lot of men, and I am pretty sure that none of the men I know has any intention of abusing/raping a woman either. But I still don’t want to share a changing room or hospital ward with any of them.

And of course neither of us can say the same about the intentions of other transwomen or men.

So to be on the safe side I would prefer that no person with a penis, whether or not they are wearing a dress comes into spaces where I and other women and girls are vulnerable.

Has anyone explained what living as a woman means?

On the one hand I do occasionally wear skirts/dress. I more regularly wear jeans and trainers.

I wear make up. But not in lock down.

I’m the main earner and in the past my DH has been a SAHP. And so have I.

It’s so confusing!

@WeatherwaxOn

It is a valid question. But.... What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

Another space. A 'third' space if necessary, as has been suggested before. It's not up to the women to always acomodate everyone else, in this case people who still have penises. You may be ok with it, but its not for you to decide what is ok for other people. For many other people, it is not. And many of these women will have been sexually assaulted by men.

The ones I recognise as trans are ones that are either visibly or audibly trans. It would be foolish to assume that these are the only ones that exist. I often find myself in a situation where I think a woman looks a bit "manly" and I idly consider whether they are trans and I am not sure either way

So it's OK in your head to Gate keep what trabs is but it's transphobic for women to gate keep what a woman is?

The issue really is why is 'presenting as a man/woman' even a thing. What does that mean? Why does dress, hobbies, haircuts denote anything about sex at all? Surely breaking down those issues rather than medicating and chopping up body parts would be a better route for real change.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm not gatekeeping anything

@WeatherwaxOn

It is a valid question. But.... What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

I think Weather you raise a valid question which warrants discussion. Unfortunately TRAs and their armies will not even entertain such a debate.

Back to OPs question I agree it's outrageous women are banned for asking the question. Especially while Twatter and such spaces are very welcoming to chatting to Minor Attracted Persons.

One wonders what safeguarding will look like in 10 years.

If identifying as a woman means putting on some make up and wearing a dress, why is it so so wrong for a white / pink skin female person to identify as a black / brown skin female person ie rachael Dolziel. After all, the only difference these two examples is skin colour and maybe socialisation if parentage is from a different cultural background, however this might be smaller if both females from the same country of origin. Whereas between male and female, there are many many biological and physical differences between males and females, and socialisation and culture of males and females is very different. Is it just a numbers game, if more people dis it, it would become socially acceptable? Likewise men that identify as little girls ? Why is that not acceptable ? There are people with genuine sex dysphoria who dont feel happy in the sex they were born, and they feel more aligned with a version of female . Logic follows then that they must believe there are fundamental differences between males and females, otherwise they wouldnt identify as the opposite sex (unless of course this is just a fetish ) If a transwoman who has true sex / gender dysphoria would not want to undress in a male changing room, why should actual women not be allowed to express they dont want males in changing rooms with their daughters, and this isnt about excluding trans people from all walks of life , but where privacy , safety and dignity are concerned , women should not have to avoid female public changing rooms / toilets / hostel beds / hospital wards, becuase there is an increased risk of men identifying as women , or men acting in 'girl' mode for the day , infringing on that. I can understand people wanting to be inclusive and pushing for third spaces for trans people that cannot pass under the radar as the opposite sex, or dont have a GRC, but to throw women under the bus and increase the risk of sexual harm ?

If a F to M transgender person wants to use the Female change room, this 13 year old may still encounter a penis

No they wouldn't, since that's not actually a penis.

I think it's a question that needs to be asked, and it can't be answered if we can't talk about sex.

However, I don't think it's a very effective question on Twitter.

The problem is that many people would answer honestly that they don't want to share a changing room with anyone and that they are used to using family changing rooms and want a private cubicle and don't want to strip off in a public shower.

To understand why the question is necessary, you need to take a few extra steps and understand why some women want privacy from men, why they have a right to privacy and why unisex changing facilities aren't always possible or appropriate. On twitter that nuance is usually lost.

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

Safeguarding = Anti trans?!

What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

As log as it's not the women's facilities, I haven't got two fucks to give.

Additional, unisex spaces are the answer here (in addition to accessible spaces, not in place of). To those that say they would be outing for trans people, I disagree.

For a start, there are loads of people who claim to have no problem peeing next to anyone, whether male or female. All those trans allies could use a unisex space. Mothers with son and fathers with daughters could use them. People who identify as non-binary could use them.

There's no reason to think that an additional, unisex space would be outing for a trans person.

It seems to be a scenario that suits everyone, and companies seem to be falling over themselves to give money to be able to put Stonewall branding on their websites, so I assume they have enough money to actually implement something practical that would suit everyone, including trans people.

One can only wonder why this is deemed unacceptable to those people who claim the only option is to scrap single-sex spaces entirely.

So to be on the safe side I would prefer that no person with a penis, whether or not they are wearing a dress comes into spaces where I and other women and girls are vulnerable

Exactly this. John Lewis wouldn’t allow my husband in to an empty changing room to help me try on a bra after I had breast cancer surgery- this was in case a women came in, I accepted that.
But a trans person was allowed in with exactly the same genitalia.

gender expression means diddly squat when you are talking about sex specific services as defined by the equality act. Its sex. Your chromosomal make up that is the only thing that defines it, because it is your sexed body that has been the basis of sexed (not gendered) violence or discrimination, and the very reason the equality act has been created.

IF you have a GRC then, in many cases, you can access the services designed for the opposite sex. But there are exemptions, and that again is because of womens safety and privacy, and because the law even acknowledges that a GRC records a legal fiction - because you simply are unable to change sex.

These exemptions are important - they say that you cant, for example, work as a rape counsellor. Or do breast examinations. Or provide personal services for vulnerable elderly women. There has been a big push to get rid of these too. One would ask WHY would someone wish to work in a role which would cause discomfort for those using the service, when there are many other roles which could be more suitable. Rape counsellor for transwomen, perhaps? Im sure that, sadly, there is a need.

Can a person change their gender?

You're mixing up sex and gender here.

Sex is the biological basis of your body. Female mammals have large gametes; malemamals have small gametes. Even people with differences of sexual development (DSDs - often called 'intersex') have this basic biology.

Gender is the set of social conventions, roles and stereotypes of character & behaviour which human society tends to expect of the different sexes. Used to be called "sex stereotypes".

It's important we can make this distinction, because it's what enables feminists to challenge sex stereotypes for women, and separate out our biological potentials (mostly the different roles of females & males in the reproduction of our species) from the expectations & socialisation into how we're told we should behave, according to our sex.

So feminists can say, "Just because women have babies (sex), doesn't mean we are limited to the role of mother and nurturer (sex stereotype)."

Gender is the social system of conditioning predicated on sex. WE need to separate them out.

So yes, I suppose people can change their gender roles, or challenge them: most people do!

But we can't change sex. That is magical thinking.

And the problem with a lot of the gender ideology extremism we're seeing today is that the idea of "living as a woman" is a very superficial and often very offensive & demeaning view of what it is to be a woman.

There's a really interesting bit of the history of science embedded in this: ideas about transition were first made popular at a time of sexism and backlash against women's liberation ...

@Jellyslice indeed they are unnecessary surgeries. So don't have them, and lobby for trans spaces. A man dressing / passing as a woman has very little to do with an actual woman and has zero business walking into my changing room. There's apicture of a woman on it. You're not a woman. End of.