AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@Angryresister to answer your original question I agree they shouldn’t be banned for asking a question, providing they are willing to listen to answers from both sides of the argument.

@Angryresister

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question: “Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?” Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

YANBU.

Women being banned for merely asking the question is taking the censorship of women supporting women's rights to another level.

@nanbread

Also have people really been suspended over just asking this question?

yes they really have.

What side if an argument gives anyone any right to override the boundaries of women.

Can you explain why the feelings of some male born people hold priority over the safety privacy and dignity and of women.

@MrsHusky

No she shouldn't be banned but, its not THAT black and white as some people are saying.

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman, and i have absolutely no issue in sharing shower/bathroom space with them, and have done at various conventions where we've used the spaces swimming pools/public toilets.

Personally, there ought to be a 'genderless' facility available for those who dont want to be in the male/female spaces, or lockable cubicles provided now.

There are enough non-binary folk around who aren't trans, but who still dont want to be in their bio-gender bathrooms that society ought to adapt to be inclusive.

The vast VAST majority of men do not have ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman either, but I don't want to share my changing rooms with them.

@Blubellsarebells

If your transwomen friends cared as much about your feelings of safety and being respected as you do about theirs, they would ve campaigning for third spaces. Why aren't they? It seems like the obvious solution but nobody on that side ever mentions it. Its almost like male feelings are more important than women's dignity and boundaries.

But they're not considered male feelings, they identify as women so it's other women's feelings...

It is pretty othering to use a third space.

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F, maybe you want surgery but can't have it yet etc, using that third space would "out" you.

@nanbread

Also have people really been suspended over just asking this question?

yes. Lots of them and thos who havent have received death and rape threats. Often rape with their 'girl dicks'

A third space would also make transpeople more vulnerable to violence.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average.

What's to stop malicious people targeting third spaces?

Transwomen don’t want to use a third space because they want to pass as female. A third space draws attention to their trans status. Unless the third space was called unisex. That might work.

I am dismayed with how few millennial women will support women’s rights on this. They are more concerned with appearing to be on the “right” side of the argument than doing what is actually right for their fellow women and their future daughters.

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F, maybe you want surgery but can't have it yet etc, using that third space would "out" you

That's our problem becuase???

Womens spaces are fir women. Not fir anyone who doesn't want to use the mens . Not as a buffer stone or a validation exercise.

Not our problem.

Let's take this scenario - middle aged man decides he was born in the wrong body. Over the course of a few weeks or months he starts wearing make up, padded bras. Perhaps he wears a wig. Other than that, nothing else changes about him. He decides to go to a sports centre, perhaps there's a children's swimming class there. You are telling me that women and girls have no right to object to this individual using the female changing rooms?

There doesn't even need to be that sort of discrepancy in age for it to be upsetting for the (female) women and girls.

This was the scenario at DD's school:
Teenaged boy decides he was born in the wrong body. Over the course of a few weeks or months he starts wearing make up and grows his hair. Other than that, nothing else changes about him. He decides to use the girls' changing rooms and loos. You are telling me that the girls who knew him as a boy just last term have no right to object to this individual using the female changing rooms?

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average

What, more likely than the actual women who are attacked and killed every day by actual men? Are you kidding me?

It is a valid question. But
What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

The elephant in this particular room is that the problem here is men. It's that transgender people feel too threatened with male violence to use male facilities. Ergo the problem is men.

This is not women's issue to fix. We are not support humans. We are not here to sacrifice our own dignity, privacy and safety to affirm the identities of those who are not female (and they're not). They are trans women; and yes, it is usually trans women, not trans men, who are making this particular noise. They have a different biology, therefore a different set of physical and safeguarding needs.

I would advocate for a third space. That's a space I'd also use in circumstances of needing to use facilities alongside my young son. I'd not use it if I were alone. And if I use the reasoning that I've been the victim of both male abuse and rape, I am 'weaponising my trauma' (which ranks amongst the most offensive phrases I've ever heard uttered).

'Third space' isn't good enough for the vociferous activists, however, and in this regard you have to ask yourself why not. If simply ensuring the privacy, safety and security of trans people isn't sufficient, exactly what is it the activists do want?

The answers are not necessarily comfortable.

*But they're not considered male feelings, they identify as women so it's other women's feelings...

It is pretty othering to use a third space.

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F, maybe you want surgery but can't have it yet etc, using that third space would "out" you.*

But why are those feelings more important than the feelings of women who may have been rape victims or subjected to sexual abuse, or jewish or muslim women, or any other women whose boundaries say she prefers a single sex space?

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

Why? Are you afraid of debate?

To dismiss this topic and try and label it as "hate" is missing the point. Objecting to one element of the trans discussion does not make someone immediately anti-trans and if we go down that path we might as well just agree that any minority group can have anything and everything they want just because, without any regard for how their wants might impact on others.

I fully support the rights of trans people to live their lives. If they want to present themselves as their chosen gender I have no problem with that and would not hesitate to defend them from attack. However, when their wants risk impinging on the rights and protections of others then we at least owe it to ourselves as a society to bloody well talk about it like adults.

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F, maybe you want surgery but can't have it yet etc, using that third space would "out" you

And as women it’s our duty to “be kind” and never put our rights and safety above that of a man?

Mrs Husky

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman

And I know a lot of men in my family and close circle of friends, and I can assure you that not ONE of them has any intention of abusing/raping a woman.

So I guess abuse and rape of females by males is just a myth.

@Motherdare

Transwomen don’t want to use a third space because they want to pass as female. A third space draws attention to their trans status. Unless the third space was called unisex. That might work.

I am dismayed with how few millennial women will support women’s rights on this. They are more concerned with appearing to be on the “right” side of the argument than doing what is actually right for their fellow women and their future daughters.

I don't think it's about appearing to be on the right side of things.

Millennial people are more likely to know someone who is openly, genuinely trans, non binary, queer etc. They are more likely to consume media featuring trans people.

So they have a human connection to trans people. They see the impact it has on them when they are included, they see the discrimination they face. They realise they are people with feelings as valid as theirs.

It's a bit like people who live in areas of the least immigration are the most anti immigration.

Because 90% of males with a trans identity do not have the surgery.

This is fundamentally the problem. If you can't tell the difference, then you can't assess the risk of them being in a female space. Whether we like it or not, 90% of violent crime is committed by men. The whole point of female-only spaces is to keep females safe.

@nanbread

A third space would also make transpeople more vulnerable to violence.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average.

What's to stop malicious people targeting third spaces?

killed. Only if you are a Brazillian trans prostitute. In the UK there are more transpeople who have been imprisioned for murder than been murdered. I believ it is 1 in the last 10 years, and that was not due to their trans status.

Attacked - well that depends upon your definition. Many would class misgendering as violence, so its hard to substantiate. But FOI from MOJ concluded that they are less likely to be victims than many other demographics

@nanbread what’s your evidence that in the UK trans women are more likely to be murdered.

Even if that were true (it’s not), women are not human shields for male violence.

Having single sex spaces is extraordinarily effective safeguarding- of the sexual assaults that take place in public toilets and changing rooms, 90% of them are in mixed sex spaces.

Why should women and girls be less safe?

YANBU to think they shouldn’t be banned as that’s a bit extreme, but YABU to be transphobic

@lifeturnsonadime

My point is that the world has changed. You can't easily tell someone's birth sex by looking at them. Do you institute a genital check at the door?
If so, if someone with a vagina who presented as a man would be perfectly entitled to use women's changing rooms.
A lot of people with penises would not be entitled but you would not be able to tell by looking at them.
My real question is how do you manage that situation if you're not relying on people self-identfying as a penis-haver or vagina-haver.
If someone is a bit too coy, do you demand that they remove their towel and show their genitals?

@Motherdare

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F, maybe you want surgery but can't have it yet etc, using that third space would "out" you

And as women it’s our duty to “be kind” and never put our rights and safety above that of a man?

Oh do fuck off. I've not said that anywhere.

If you read my other posts you'd see I suggested having cubicles for everyone.