AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@WeatherwaxOn

It is a valid question. But.... What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

Into the gender neutral toilet facilities that should be the answer to this question - respecting everyone's situation whilst still keeping women and girls safe from predatory male-bodied people.

*women are hardwired to spot a man. even a pretty man in a dress. We are hardwired because a man is a threat at a basic level, whether we like to admit it or not. Across the world and across the millenia, a female alone in a space with a man is risky, so we can see who is male and who is female. It happens with animals too, and we are just clever animals. There are very very few transwomen, in actual real life (not photoshopped and filtered SM) who pass - be it how they carry themselves, their body structure, their voice.

Men do not have this same ability. They dont need to. Men are a threat to them, but its a different type of threat. They are more attune to signs of violence rather than identifying sex, because they are bigger and stronger than us. Their recognition of 'female' is far more basic, which seems to be some of the problem with male violence towards transwomen. They mistakingly find them attractive and then their homophobia/shame/anger takes over in violence. This is why men often claim you cant tell. Why they are quite happy to shove them over into the female nonmale camp.*

Sorry, that's bullshit. Not the part about women being able to recognise a "pretty man in a dress" but the part about men not being able to as well.

It's well-established that male to female transitions result in a "woman" with realistic genitalia but unrealistic female features in terms of face and body shape. These are easily spotted by both women and men.

Female to male transitions result in a "man" with realistic male features in terms of face and body shape, but less realistic genitalia. Both women and men have a hard time spotting these people unless they get to the point where they can look very closely.

I think if a biologically male XY person has undergone gender transition surgery and/or has begun hormone treatment and knows in their heart of hearts they are a female, then of course they should use female toilets!

As a dour, unnattractive woman with a dislike for hormonal medication, I feel huge sympathy for genuine transwomen who don't pass .

Why is the debate "Well if you are medicated or undergo life threatening surgery I'll let you pass". For example, a man in their 50s, who has undergone a kidney transplant and realises all their life they've been a woman - and wants to change their name, clothes and live their life as a woman. But cannot undergo any more medical treatment. Why should they get different treatment than an 18 year old who took hormones early and "passes" as a woman.

Are they not both transwomen who should be accorded the same status?

You "pass" if you're pretty enough or feminine enough to use female changing rooms. I genuinely find that offensive. Should non binary folk be told they're allowed to use any changing room because they don't look like they are masculine or feminine enough for either??

All females should use female changing rooms, and all males should use male changing rooms.Wear whatever clothes you like and as much or as little make up as you want.

"Can a person change their gender?"
I think you mean to ask can a person change sex.
To which the answer is obviously no, they cant.

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average

fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

[quote DedlyMedally]@lifeturnsonadime

My point is that the world has changed. You can't easily tell someone's birth sex by looking at them. Do you institute a genital check at the door?
If so, if someone with a vagina who presented as a man would be perfectly entitled to use women's changing rooms.
A lot of people with penises would not be entitled but you would not be able to tell by looking at them.
My real question is how do you manage that situation if you're not relying on people self-identfying as a penis-haver or vagina-haver.
If someone is a bit too coy, do you demand that they remove their towel and show their genitals?[/quote]
Clearly your world has changed.

It is extremely easy to tell the sex of a person just by looking at them, and especially if they move or speak.

Perhaps you are a man? Men are much worse at recognising the sex of other males who present in a non-stereotypically masculine manner. Women, oddly enough, are much better at this. Could it be because this is a necessary skill for survival? Given that the vast majority of abuse of all forms perpetrated on women is carried out by males - ie men.

That should say Should non binary folk be banned from both male adn female changing rooms because they don't look like they are masculine or feminine enough for either??

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

nanbread I'm sorry, but the "most vulnerable to being harmed" is propaganda.

Fewer than one transperson a year is murdered in the UK. Each one is a tragedy, but, statistically, they are safer than the general population. More transpeople have been jailed for murder than have been murdered.

Meanwhile - an average of 2.5 women a week are murdered by men in the UK.

Where is our hashtag? Where is our march? Where is the concern that week in, week out, women are being murdered?

Can you IMAGINE what would happen if 2.5 trans people were being killed every single week?

We don't even report the deaths of these women. Not unless their murder was particularly gruesome, there was a salacious element or they were particularly pretty by Western standards.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

That is why single sex spaces exist. It's not a trans issue - it's because male people harm female people.

You can't change sex. So, male people, no matter what their gender identity is, should not be able to come into single sex spaces. It is up to them to find a workable solution, it's not my fucking problem. I've got enough problems what with trying not to be murdered.

YES, that's it in a nutshell.

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

^ This

The world has no place for transphobia. A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new! A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act. It doesn't matter what surgeries they have or haven't had. It's nobody else's business.

No glogirl non binary people should ise the facilities that match their sex.
Its not hard.

@blendedmummy

YANBU to think they shouldn’t be banned as that’s a bit extreme, but YABU to be transphobic

What is transphobic about protecting women and girls and their right to privacy and dignity and female only spaces?

Because people who have been ageing up how the media, social media, tech companies etc are taking away freedom to speak by labelling it as hate speech etc because its not following their narrative of what they want to happen have been labelled conspiracy theorists.

So don't be so surprised now that is actually happening.

@lifeturnsonadime

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman, and i have absolutely no issue in sharing shower/bathroom space with them, and have done at various conventions where we've used the spaces swimming pools/public toilets.

I'm sure you do. This is not about thinking that all transwomen have ulterior motives. It's not about what they want.

It's about women's rights enshrined in law to single sex spaces.

It wasn't that long ago that we had to fight for the right to vote, and for these spaces.

Women had to stay at home or pee in the street if they were caught short.

The very fact that male bodied people want the right to go into our spaces offends some womens boundaries. It is not for men to decide what those boundaries are. The result of this is that some women will chose to stay at home, but who cares, right?

Spot on.

It will be interesting to see whether all of these people who can always just tell by looking are proven right in the future.
It would certainly make thing simpler.

I think if a biologically male XY person has undergone gender transition surgery and/or has begun hormone treatment and knows in their heart of hearts they are a female, then of course they should use female toilets!

"You can join our club - if you have unnecessary surgeries performed on you and take unnecessary medications that will have lifelong effects on you. Us? Oh, we don't have to do it - but you do."

Yuck. Absolutely unacceptable way to treat anybody.

For people who think transgender women should use the mens changing room - do you think transgender men should use the womens? So, people who are born female but are taking hormones and have a male -passing figure/facial hair and may have had surgery? Because I think many of you would be opposed to a male-passing person in a female changing room even if their chromosomes are female

I once shared a very pleasant afternoon drinking tea and eating cake at a local tearoom back in my early days of this debate, I think it was 2015/16, talking to a prominent psychologist who had been treating transgender men for 30 years. He was also, at the time, a trustee of a transgender society which had been one of the first. Transgender, not transexual. Initially a society for cross dressers as distinguished from transexuals (who actually were originally banned from the society)

At this point I was riled up, thanks to MN, about the IOCs transgender policy for the upcoming Olympics, and had been asked by an MP to come and read a little statement to parliament about sport and what was being talked about on MN. and I was still unaware that we were not talking about transexuals.

I was speaking to this lovely chap about the need to help those with dysphoria, and he asked me 'what about those men who are absolutely happy with their body?' which brought me up short. Like most people who approach this topic, it simply hadnt occurred to me that many were not dysphoric. It made sense of an earlier argument Id had when someone had asked my why I was talking about dysphoria in regards transwomen.

This guy told me most of the men he had treated over the year, most of their problems came from shame of being, what in the past, was called transvestism. But that this was changing, as it was becoming OK for them to be out. And that this was who we were dealing with, not transexuals.

I still think most people dont understand this.

"I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman"

I know a lot of Men, I can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping women.

Do you see the problem with your argument?

“The world has no place for transphobia. A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new! A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act. It doesn't matter what surgeries they have or haven't had. It's nobody else's business”.

So a predatory man could claim he is a trans woman in order to access women’s spaces? You think this is OK do you?

The world has no place for transphobia. A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new!

So what about my right as a sexual abuse survivor who suffers PTSD around male-bodied people? Why should their "rights" trump MY rights to feel bloody safe?

We also have women being suspended for naming and shaming men who send them dick pics. Imagine a man has a right to privacy when he is busy sending dick pics to women on Twitter.

Twitter are misogynistic

It will be interesting to see whether all of these people who can always just tell by looking are proven right in the future

You are aware right that transition is not actually a requirement? Cross dressers come under the trans umbrella too.

You have a very outdated idea of what a transwomen is. I mean look at philip/pip bunce they are woman half the week...

This idea no one notices is bonkers. All as required is a say so. No clothes nothing.

@JellySlice

I think if a biologically male XY person has undergone gender transition surgery and/or has begun hormone treatment and knows in their heart of hearts they are a female, then of course they should use female toilets!

"You can join our club - if you have unnecessary surgeries performed on you and take unnecessary medications that will have lifelong effects on you. Us? Oh, we don't have to do it - but you do."

Yuck. Absolutely unacceptable way to treat anybody.

So are you saying womanhood and access to women's spaces is a 'club' defined by feelings in your head?

And, @CrunchyCarrot, we are now expected to believe these people are women, not men who want to be women, but actual women.
And allow them into refuges and changing rooms and STI treatment spaces and our groups for women suffering from female cancers, or female only conditions, and on and on and on.
Where are OUR spaces? At what magical point does a male become a female? Do his life experiences change when this happens? Strength, size and socialisation?

No. A dog cannot become a cat, even if it has pointy ears and enjoys a saucer of milk.

A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new! A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act.

Incorrect. Female spaces may be retained for women and girls - ie females - when it is reasonable and proportionate to do so. Eg a women's prison.

Transmen and transwomen are protected from discrimination based upon their gendered behaviour or self ID, but the comparator for that discrimination is their sex, not the sex that they wish to colonise. Eg a transwoman cannot be banned from accessing any services aimed at men.