AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

If nothing bad , such as FGM, that happens to women ( biological) is attributed to women , then there is no need for any "special treatment" of women

Which takes us to a society with only unisex loos

On average are transwomen happy with that ? Are they happy if everyone has unisex unigendet loos ?

@lifeturnsonadime

For me this debate has gone way beyond who can go in toilets.

It is the silencing of women and no debating the safety of women.

@wildraisins it is of course terrible that any transwomen should suffer an attack at the hands of men. But why should women and girls (the link was a 10 year old girl being abused ffs) have to put themselves at risk to solve a problem of male violence?

If transwomen want to truly be allies of women then they would understand this. They wouldn't put their wants above the safety of women and girls and they would see that addressing male violence / third spaces are a solution that addresses everyones concerns.

This.

No-one is allowed to speak out, even to voice legitimate concerns.

Any attempt to even describe adverse effects on women and girls is shouted down as "transphobia". TRAs will not engage in reasoned debate - they shout down, threaten, with the vilest abuse almost always sexual, and even physically abuse in some instances.

People of both sexes - including scientists, psychologists, etc who try to argue that SEX can't be changed, even though we can doptwhatever GENDER identity suits us, often find themselves threatened with being out of a job; their talks are cancelled; papers are withdrawn from journals if TRAs find out about them and protest.

They are victims of the "cancel culture" and are shut up and shut down whenever they try to voice legitimate concerns. Their concerns are never addressed - just dismissed.

@Fembot123

I just don’t understand why anyone thinks a male/female designation on a toilet door would deter a would be rapist.

What does that male/female sign connote? What does it mean? Can you set out your thinking here?

@Fembot123

I just don’t understand why anyone thinks a male/female designation on a toilet door would deter a would be rapist.

Two reasons

because they need to check they are not seen

Because if anything is reported against them , by being in the wrong room they are already on the back foot . If they could legitimately be there it's back to his word against hers

berlin

It would seen when women are raped by males there is still nothing to fear and no one will do it anyway or it will happen anyway when women say no to anyone born male in in spaces so we have no right to exclude.

However the same fear of rape and abuse is apparently a valid reason to allow some who were born male into women's spaces.

All.a bit one sided

If you come from a point of discriminating against a whole class of people I can see why you would have an issue

Not all discrimination is bad. Often it can serve a purpose and a greater good.

For example we don't allow adults to enrol as pupils in primary or secondary schools. Some people might really want to but we don't let them- is that discrimination against a class of people? Yes it is but it serves a valid purpose.

You seem to be suggesting that trans people no longer belong to the sex class of male or female. This isn't true, someone expressing a gender identity still belongs to a sex class. Sometimes for valid purposes we do allow the male class to be discriminated against to protect members of the female sex class.

This is nothing new and is something understood globally even if it's less that perfectly acted upon. Single sex spaces for changing, washing, toileting and sleeping are one of those valid reasons. Ditto sports.

Let's flip it around fembot. If you see a male-bodied person following a random (i.e. not family/friend) female teen into the toilets and waiting outside her cubicle would you feel exactly the same as if it was a female-bodied person?

I just don’t understand why anyone thinks a male/female designation on a toilet door would deter a would be rapist.

Go on ..... think. If you try really hard, you'll get there! Promise.

@midgebabe, interesting points 🤔 It’s still not preventative but you have given me food for thought ☺️ A 9 year old girl got raped in a toilet in Sainsbury’s near us a couple of years back but I suppose the real question that poses is the safety of children in public toilets in general as it has happened to boys in the men’s toilets too.

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace

I just don’t understand why anyone thinks a male/female designation on a toilet door would deter a would be rapist.

Go on ..... think. If you try really hard, you'll get there! Promise.

How patronising.

@Whatwouldscullydo

berlin

It would seen when women are raped by males there is still nothing to fear and no one will do it anyway or it will happen anyway when women say no to anyone born male in in spaces so we have no right to exclude.

However the same fear of rape and abuse is apparently a valid reason to allow some who were born male into women's spaces.

All.a bit one sided

Only trans women are allowed to fear males and weaponise their trauma.

@Fembot123

I just don’t understand why anyone thinks a male/female designation on a toilet door would deter a would be rapist.

Please stop using this argument. It is being used to silence women every time. Why are these spaces excluding men in the first place if it will not deter a would-be rapist? Why do we bother doing background checks on teachers etc if it will not deter a would-be abuser?

Why do you want to make it even easier for males to attack women and children if what we are doing has absolutely no effect at all at the moment?

There's actually quite a lot of concern from a number of different quarters about the extraordinary power that this private companies now have. They are the main forums for debate and discussion. And they are controlling what debates are allowed on these platforms. And that means they are able to exert considerable influence on whose voices win out in public policy. When they have such reach, and hence such power, just saying, well they are private companies, isn't really good enough. At the very least is blinding yourself to just how much power such companies are now holding. People are right to be concerned about this.

What's acceptable to debate and discuss has always been subject to the control of a few, and is entirely subjective depending on where you try to do it and where you live.

Previously the church or monarchy were the moral guardians of which views were acceptable, in the Europe anyway, then governments took on most of that roll.

The fact private entities now have a huge influence in public opinion is a double edged sword imo. It allows more people than ever to participate but as you say if they're controlling the narrative it will lead to issues.

At the end of the day someone, or some organisation, have to make a judgement call on what is and isn't acceptable to debate online/in public. It doesn't really matter if that's twitter themselves, the government or some third party group there will always be limits on what is acceptable to say and there will always be people who feel that lines are wrong wherever they are drawn.

But that's an entirely different discussion and as things stand today twitter hold the power to make the calls on what you can and can't say on Twitter.

How patronising

Guilty as charged. You deserve no better.

That is not the same thing at all @Winesalot 🤷‍♀️ I’m not suggesting just letting men in but in my opinion trans women are women so should use the women’s toilets.

I am a previous victim of rape - there is simply no evidence whatsoever that a trans woman is likely to rape a woman. This is utter nonsense and such twaddle should be dismissed for the anti trans diatribe it is.

Just because it wouldn't bother you sharing your spaces with genitally-intact males who claim to be women, it doesn't mean that every woman or girl is comfortable with it. Most of us aren't. We want places where we and our children feel safe.

We don't feel safe in places where genitally-intact males can take off their clothes, or watch us when we take off ours; we feel - and are - vulnerable.

So this is how it goes now in my country. Can’t as a woman in a meeting ask a question about single sex spaces for women and girls you get chucked out for daring to ask that question

@Fembot123

That is not the same thing at all *@Winesalot* 🤷‍♀️ I’m not suggesting just letting men in but in my opinion trans women are women so should use the women’s toilets.

What is your definition of "woman" Fembot?

But they DO have a moral obligation. Are you seriously arguing that these platforms that have become de facto "public squares" for discussion should be able to pick and choose who can give a reasonable and argued opinion?

Yes of course they should be able to pick and choose, otherwise you'll end up with a huge mess and some very unsavoury viewpoints being published.

There isn't an easy answer but what you consider reasonable isn't the same as what someone else considers reasonable. It's fine to say twitter have a moral obligation to facilitate open debate but who's morals should they base their decisions on? Yours? The Catholic Church's? Kim Jong-un's?

As I said in my post above someone has to make the call on what's is and isn't acceptable and there will always be people who disagree with that decision. The solution to that issue isn't to say all opinions are valid and must be heard.

I’m not suggesting just letting men in but in my opinion trans women are women so should use the women’s toilets

Well, in my opinion, all men are women so let's cut 27 pages of crap and just give 'em free access to our spaces. Sorted.

FFS, I despair!

@Fembot123

That is not the same thing at all *@Winesalot* 🤷‍♀️ I’m not suggesting just letting men in but in my opinion trans women are women so should use the women’s toilets.

I asked this upthread but didn't get a reply. Are you able to word (in basic terms) a law that allows trans women to enter a single-sex space but not men? How would this law differentiate between trans women and men, on an objective, verifiable basis?

You have ignored my previous posts directed to you, so I'm not holding my breath that I'll get a good-faith answer. If you don't want to answer, perhaps consider why you're unable to articulate an objective differentiation between trans women and men?

Dick

You should have your own show, mate!

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace

I’m not suggesting just letting men in but in my opinion trans women are women so should use the women’s toilets

Well, in my opinion, all men are women so let's cut 27 pages of crap and just give 'em free access to our spaces. Sorted.

FFS, I despair!

Ok so we can’t have a discussion 🤷‍♀️ I despair of you, so snap.

@Buccanarab

There's actually quite a lot of concern from a number of different quarters about the extraordinary power that this private companies now have. They are the main forums for debate and discussion. And they are controlling what debates are allowed on these platforms. And that means they are able to exert considerable influence on whose voices win out in public policy. When they have such reach, and hence such power, just saying, well they are private companies, isn't really good enough. At the very least is blinding yourself to just how much power such companies are now holding. People are right to be concerned about this.

What's acceptable to debate and discuss has always been subject to the control of a few, and is entirely subjective depending on where you try to do it and where you live.

Previously the church or monarchy were the moral guardians of which views were acceptable, in the Europe anyway, then governments took on most of that roll.

The fact private entities now have a huge influence in public opinion is a double edged sword imo. It allows more people than ever to participate but as you say if they're controlling the narrative it will lead to issues.

At the end of the day someone, or some organisation, have to make a judgement call on what is and isn't acceptable to debate online/in public. It doesn't really matter if that's twitter themselves, the government or some third party group there will always be limits on what is acceptable to say and there will always be people who feel that lines are wrong wherever they are drawn.

But that's an entirely different discussion and as things stand today twitter hold the power to make the calls on what you can and can't say on Twitter.

Yes it does and it is unethical. If women standing up for themselves are no-platformed. Twitter should be called out, but who is going to do and where will it be done, if public debate is conducted on that platform.?