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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

999 replies

Angryresister · 27/01/2021 09:13

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
DancingLady · 27/01/2021 15:58

Have waded through this thread, including all the bad faith arguments made by that wildraisin person. Trying to argue that men can IDENTIFY into women's oppression and then claim to be THE MOST oppressed women is the height of male privilege and entitlement.

Why is it still, in 2021, not OK for women to say no to men?

BrassicaRabbit · 27/01/2021 16:04

Children with disabilities are particularly vulnerable to sexual abuse and will only be adversely affected by the erosion of single sex spaces and cultural norms. However disabled toilets and changing rooms exist for scenarios whereby a disabled older child or adult is with an opposite sex carer. That those facilities are often woefully inadequate should be considered a scandal and it's a shame disability rights doesn't attract so much of the middle class white £ and attention that this particular branch of trans rights does.

CaveMum · 27/01/2021 16:05

@DancingLady

Have waded through this thread, including all the bad faith arguments made by that wildraisin person. Trying to argue that men can IDENTIFY into women's oppression and then claim to be THE MOST oppressed women is the height of male privilege and entitlement.

Why is it still, in 2021, not OK for women to say no to men?

2nd Rule of Misogyny innit.
AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question
Whatwouldscullydo · 27/01/2021 16:07

Trying to argue that men can IDENTIFY into women's oppression and then claim to be THE MOST oppressed women is the height of male privilege and entitlement

Its a such a first world problem too. Where are the hoards of child brides and those who undergo fgm etc identifying as boys/men.

Where are the males identifying in to womanhood where women aren't able to access medical treatment without authorisation from a man.

Unfortunately we don't seek to be able to look into what factors are behind it

AngelicInnocent · 27/01/2021 16:08

Like many women, I have no problem with genuinely transwomen in our changing rooms etc, particularly those who have/are undergoing treatment. We have quietly accepted it for years as they are no danger to us and are usually very discreet.

The problem I have is in trying to force us to accept any man in those spaces who may be a danger to us. Even more so, forcing us to accept men in spaces where women are even more vulnerable such as shelters or prisons.

This doesn't even take into account forcing women who cannot share spaces with males (be that for religious reasons or due to past trauma) out of society.

Why aren't trans activists campaigning for trans rights instead of trying to remove women's rights.

teawamutu · 27/01/2021 16:09

@HopeMumsnet I can see I've had a post removed, but I haven't had a deletion message. Does this count as a strike against me?

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/01/2021 16:16

Sorry I should add witg regards to the large numbers of young girls now identifying as boys.

A 4400 percent increase in fact. Something we were promised by penny mordant would be looked into

DancingLady · 27/01/2021 16:17

@Whatwouldscullydo

Trying to argue that men can IDENTIFY into women's oppression and then claim to be THE MOST oppressed women is the height of male privilege and entitlement

Its a such a first world problem too. Where are the hoards of child brides and those who undergo fgm etc identifying as boys/men.

Where are the males identifying in to womanhood where women aren't able to access medical treatment without authorisation from a man.

Unfortunately we don't seek to be able to look into what factors are behind it

Yes this. Shall we tell girls dying in menstrual huts that, didn't they know, they can just identify out of it?! Sillies. I've seen TRAs on Twitter arguing that FGM isn't a female crime, and it's transphobic to call it that, as the vagina and clitoris are not female organs. I want to gouge my eyes out after reading some if this shit, but also it's important women know what is going on, in plain sight, often being said by men who see themselves as leftwing and progressive.
SeasonFinale · 27/01/2021 16:17

@Thewithesarehere

It is rare to find this much privilege squashed in two tiny posts *@MolyHolyGuacamole and @SeasonFinale*. But you two take the too prize. Star
To you and *@PhoebeSnow*

There had previously been an agreement I had thought that MN would allow any trans discussions to take place on the feminist pages and not on the general pages hence my comment.

I am a previous victim of rape - there is simply no evidence whatsoever that a trans woman is likely to rape a woman. This is utter nonsense and such twaddle should be dismissed for the anti trans diatribe it is.

LangClegsInSpace · 27/01/2021 16:19

[quote SweetPetrichor]@Idratherberude
The point I was trying to make still stands. If a person is transitioning or has transitioned, they are protected by the Equality Act - fair enough under the heading 'Gender Reassignment' rather than simply 'gender'...nitpicking but fair enough. The gender of a woman - including a man transitioning to be a woman - is protected. Hormonal and surgical interventions are not required. They are protected - rightly - by this act and are free to use the facilities that meet their presented gender.[/quote]
This is not correct.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic shared by people who are transitioning or who have transitioned (whatever that means). Women do not share the protected characteristic of gender reassignment with tw.

Sex is also a protected characteristic. Women do not share the protected characteristic of sex with tw because tw are male, not female. Women share the protected characteristic of sex with tm because both are female. Men share the protected characteristic of sex with tw because both are male.

There are a number of exceptions in the Equality Act to allow for things like single sex facilities and services, where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, however these are based on sex and women do not share the protected characteristic of sex with tw.

So no, the EA does not say tw 'are free to use the facilities that meet their presented gender'.

DancingLady · 27/01/2021 16:20

Great article on forced teaming (be kind, transwomen are oppressed too, share...) that really opened my eyes.

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

DancingLady · 27/01/2021 16:22

SeasonFinale what evidence do you need? TW have raped women. How many TW should rape women before you see it as a problem? I'm so sorry you were raped, and so I'm surprised you don't think that keeping all penised people out of single-sex spaces is a good idea and basic common sense.

Winesalot · 27/01/2021 16:23

I love to see a women’s and children’s rights thread ‘escape’ Feminist Chat. It blows away the constant narrative that MN is an echo chamber and that the wider population don’t care about this particular issue.

Many of the posters on this thread are not regular posters on the Feminist board (obviously there are some of us here). It also is the same when this style of question is asked generally when it is known that adult penises are involved. Every. Time.

Those who declare that the ‘younger’ generation have more acceptance of it now as they know transwomen and they are friends, I would have to as my ‘younger’ self as I was eager to please my friends. Facing the many realities of being a woman gradually made me aware of what others experienced and what I experienced. The miscarriages, the prams jammed in toilet doors, the flooding periods, the use of these facilities to escape unwanted attention, having to use the facilities because there isn’t a disabled loo to take my elderly mum (or the disabled loo is in with the other cubicles) and not being able to fit her, her wheelchair and me in the cubicle. There are so many issues without even taking into account the women who are victims of male abuse and violence who need to be away from males, and women’s religious needs.

Too often from other women, I see the throw away comments such as ‘religious women need to be re-educated that males can be ‘women’. Ahhh.. no. Sometimes these women are in fact not in a position to be ‘re-educated.

And I do see the remark occasionally ‘those abuse survivors need help to overcome their fears’. Thankfully not often. Usually there is just no acknowledgement that there is a need there at all. Or a ‘leveling up’ transwomen experience male violence as well!!! (Yes, but despite posters denying this on this thread, women can tell the difference)

The empathy and compassion seems to go only to one group. The group that is male.

Winesalot · 27/01/2021 16:24

How many TW should rape women before you see it as a problem?

The answer never comes. It seems to be n+1 if it does.

Cokie3 · 27/01/2021 16:25

@HebeMumsnet

Morning, everyone. Just letting you know we've moved this over to FWR from AIBU.
@HebeMumsnet No you haven't, the link still shows as being in AIBU: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4148030-AIBU-to-think-women-should-not-be-banned-from-Social-media-for-asking-the-question?msgid=104063519#104063519

Also, there is no such section on this board as FWR.....?

SeasonFinale · 27/01/2021 16:25

@PhoebeSnow

"THIS SHOULD CONCERN EVERY ADULT HUMAN FEMALE ON HERE and their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons and other adult human males that they have in their lives !
Don’t you try to police what concerns every woman and girl on Mumsnet or anywhere else."

As a woman on Mumsnet don't tell me it concerns "every woman .. on Mumsnet" and why should it concern every adult human females and all those males you mention. Maybe it concerns some ant trans people, maybe it concerns some other people but it doesn't concern every single person and nor should it. I think people are basically good - they are not out to harm people, why would trans women be out to harm anyone?

If you come from a point of discriminating against a whole class of people I can see why you would have an issue. As I don't have such a viewpoint I can't see that there is an issue. Therefore as I also assume there are probably just as many people with my viewpoint as yours it doesn't "CONCERN EVERY HUMAN FEMALE" as per your ranty shout.

If you want to have 100% agreement then you can join the threads on the feminist page - as referred to by another poster who you also want to berate - because that is where MN has previously said such views should be discussed.

hellejuice91 · 27/01/2021 16:25

I would say no, someone should not be banned for asking a question like this.

BUT

Maybe these types of questions has been asked in that space before and transphobic comments were made, maybe the page owner/group admin decided it was best to avoid any conversations of this nature going forward.

There have been enough transphobic comments made on this thread, let alone anywhere else on the internet.

Idratherberude · 27/01/2021 16:27

It was moved back @cokie3

DeaconBoo · 27/01/2021 16:27

Season can you please point to where Mumsnet have said this? I'm not saying they haven't, but you keep repeating it and I'm fairly sure I've seen loads of things about the differences between women and men in the non-FWR boards?

SeasonFinale · 27/01/2021 16:28

@DancingLady

SeasonFinale what evidence do you need? TW have raped women. How many TW should rape women before you see it as a problem? I'm so sorry you were raped, and so I'm surprised you don't think that keeping all penised people out of single-sex spaces is a good idea and basic common sense.
These are group spaces that groups of people access. I would love to hear of a case where a TW has raped a woman in a communal area. Evidence of that is never produced either?
DancingLady · 27/01/2021 16:29

season and helle what has been said that is transphobic? That women have the right to single-sex spaces. Why? Because most women want them. That's all, and that's enough.

I don't want any harm to come to trans people. If the problem is male violence (and it is), women are not support humans, shields, or collateral damage. TRAs can and should agitate for third spaces for trans people.

Why aren't they? If either of you can let me know I'd be really interested. Genuine question.

SeasonFinale · 27/01/2021 16:30

@DeaconBoo

Season can you please point to where Mumsnet have said this? I'm not saying they haven't, but you keep repeating it and I'm fairly sure I've seen loads of things about the differences between women and men in the non-FWR boards?
Can't remember where but on the basis that Mumsnet have said they are transferring this actual thread to FWR it would appear IOwasn't wrong in believing this to be their policy and hadn't plucked it from thin air.
DeaconBoo · 27/01/2021 16:31

These are group spaces that groups of people access. I would love to hear of a case where a TW has raped a woman in a communal area. Evidence of that is never produced either?

What? Are you trying to argue that group spaces stop being group spaces when everyone leaves except the rapist and victim so they don't count? Genuinely can't see how you're discounting the public loo assaults here?

Throckmorton · 27/01/2021 16:32

@hellejuice91

I would say no, someone should not be banned for asking a question like this.

BUT

Maybe these types of questions has been asked in that space before and transphobic comments were made, maybe the page owner/group admin decided it was best to avoid any conversations of this nature going forward.

There have been enough transphobic comments made on this thread, let alone anywhere else on the internet.

So report them - MNHQ are very good at removing transphobia. If they've not removed it, maybe that's because it's not transphobic
HmmSureJan · 27/01/2021 16:32

Why aren't they? If either of you can let me know I'd be really interested. Genuine question.

Because it isn't about "wanting to pee in peace". It's about validation and making everyone women join in the pretence, and then exploding into utter rage when they won't.