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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

999 replies

Angryresister · 27/01/2021 09:13

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
PhoebeSnow · 27/01/2021 14:48

[quote Thewithesarehere]@PhoebeSnow I ran out of buiscuits a while ago. Grin
On a serious note, we may need to start a thread in AIBU on the absolute lack of scientific data in all of the TWAW shite.[/quote]
I have too! 😀

merrymouse · 27/01/2021 14:50

But what goes on on Mumsnet only parades as feminism.

Mumsnet is heavily moderated - much more so than twitter. If you can see any posts that are genuinely transphobic they will be removed, regardless of which topic they are posted under.

It is not transphobic to discuss the need for single sex spaces.

DialSquare · 27/01/2021 14:51

I am NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace. I might start acting it soon too!

Floppywin · 27/01/2021 14:54

Men welcome men in all their forms and preferences etc -different types of males make space for one another - sounds an eminently reasonable idea.

Not women are harridans for not including males into their private spaces etc.

Doesn't quite work on Twitter - the misogynists like to now hide in plain sight and be applauded for doings so - standing up for transwomen enables them to hurl abuse at women... nice chaps these "inclusive" male types like Owen Jones.

Don't ask Owen to include different men into his mindset of what it means to be male - a misogynist is entitled to tell women what being female is. end of.

DeaconBoo · 27/01/2021 14:54

I kind of get it. I'm lucky enough not to have experienced anything overtly awful that's obviously due to being female. Feeling kindly (which is what "be kind" is often really asking) is easier if you're that lucky.

I'm embarrassed to admit how old I was before I truly saw the level of hatred and violence men (AS A CLASS, NOT ALL MEN, NOT YOUR DAD) display towards women .

Two women a week killed by a current or ex partner, rape effectively decriminalised, and that's just the tip of the iceberg, just this country. It's easier to keep your eyes closed to this if it doesn't directly affect you.

It's this that made me seek out the difference between trans women and men, so I could check where my boundaries should lie. The notion that whether someone potentially falls into the oppressing class is down to an unverifiable feeling doesn't sit comfortably with me.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/01/2021 14:56

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion

Nah. Their stance is one of exclusion of women who have the temerity to so much as question males appropriating women's rights.

NettleTea · 27/01/2021 14:56

The whole process of the GRC was a safeguarding/gatekeeping process and, as it was deemed that the numbers likely to have one were exceedingly small (around 5000, which in fact is around the number given) it was deemed an OK thing to do but those exemptions were put in place just for extra protections and giving options to refuse entry if the women involved in any service may not use it if a transexual woman was present. It allowed the decision to be made by women.

The recipients of GRCs were only ever supposed to be those transexuals who had received appropriate therapy and a gender diagnosis, and who, with interview, were deemed safe to be allowed to pass themselves off as women. It was PRECISELY put in place because they knew there were other men, cross dressing fetishists, who were definately not safe to be allowed access, and as a result their applications would be refused.

The whole GRC was set up ONLY because at the time gay marriage was not allowed, and so, for a man and a female presenting man to be allowed to marry, the legal fiction that one had changed sex was created.

That is no longer true. we have same sex civil partnerships and same sex marriage. The legal fiction of people changing sex has no place in the modern world.

People should not be descriminated against for housing/employment/harassment but we shouldnt have any law that admits it is a lie. And sex is important - for the many reasons outlined in this thread - safety, and dignity, but for health reason, for fair representation, for monitoring perposes, and to prevent discrimination over things which have a sex basis, such as maternity leave/redundancies, seeing how policy is affecting half the population, crime statistics.

At the moment things are madness. Anything to do with the word woman is being erased. Or the word Mother. Or Breast feeding. Crimes committed by males are being marked down as being committed by women - and when sexual crime is so low amongst women it doesnt take that many cases to really have an impact. And when it is shown that 'women' are just as much as risk as men, well, we wont need those single sex spaces after all

when people complain about a lack of representation of women in CEO roles, and you get men like Phillip Bunce winning awards for women, well, it only takes a few of those executigve bankers to pull out the stockings and suddenly its OK - the number of women in positions of power are fine. And when they can show that they are not ousting the women who went on maternity leave, because they have a number of non binary and female identifying staff of the same age who HAVENT been sacked, well it cant be sex discrimination can it?
and the gold silver and bronze of any womens sport is going to mediocre men. And the female college scholarships in the USA are heading their way.

Its so not about toilets and changing rooms, its only made that way to try to make women look ridiculous because 'they only want to pee'

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 27/01/2021 14:57

t's been pointed out on FWR before, that it's interesting those who claim not to know what a woman is also know exactly where to aim the rape threats.

Isn't it just? Angry

PhoebeSnow · 27/01/2021 14:57

What I find fascinating is every time a questioning woman makes a comment on Twitter the abuse just proves their point every time! From JK Rowling to myself the vile abuse just shows them up for who and what they really are , misogynists with huge issues and chips on their shoulders.
Women are not going to shut up about this , on here or anywhere else.
Women are rightly wary of any man who wants to be in female spaces, many of us have learnt to our cost the price of male entitlement.
Be Kind my arse! it costs too much when it comes to this issue.

PurpleHoodie · 27/01/2021 14:58

Its so not about toilets and changing rooms, its only made that way to try to make women look ridiculous because 'they only want to pee'

Yes.

singingsoprano · 27/01/2021 14:58

@JoodyBlue

One of the reasons we protect women in society through single sex space is not just to protect against general assault. It is the particular type of assault. Many women can get pregnant. The consequence of pregnancy lasts a lifetime and if a baby is born, then trauma continues into the next generation. It is BECAUSE women have women's bodies that they need single sex space. All other arguments (and there are many) aside. In terms of the vulnerability argument this trumps all for me.
Agree with this.
Winesalot · 27/01/2021 15:00

SomewhereInbetween1
That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

Please explain then why trans activists 'some' of whom are transwomen (I will let you look and decide for yourself about this) keep telling women to STFU with violence, rape threats, and death threats. These are as male as it comes.

The amount of sexual harassment that Helen experienced by people who are males of all gender identities, including prominent transwomen, on twitter for asking this question was horrendous. And recent, as in just this past week.

This is violence. This is being perpetrated by males of all gender identities and directed a woman asking this question.

Please understand this. Please also look at the prison statistics for sex offenders. Please don't ignore the studies that have shown that transitioning does not reduce trans women's crime statistics to that of a female. They do not. The UK prison statistics also show that they do not.

And the violence being targeted at women on-line for saying 'no' is also proof that this is true, every day. Because it is on-line does not make it any less of an issue. Who is to say a person expressing a violent intent on line is not going to feel righteous in carrying out that violence on a person in real life?

coldsunnydays · 27/01/2021 15:01

@Buccanarab

To answer the original question yes YABU to think people shouldn't be banned for voicing opinions that go against a platforms posting policy.

I'm not sure why we have to go through this every time someone/something is removed from twitter.

Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Mumsent and every other SM platform are private entities and are free to decide what they want to be published on their platforms. There's no obligation for them to allow anyone's views to be aired and they can ban people for whatever reason they want.

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion and if you're not happy with their policies on this go join a, or start your own, platform that supports your views. Although as Parlor demonstrated be careful what you wish for.

I know the discussion has moved on in 22 pages but it's worth reiterating.

And I am absolutely sure you would be just as sanguine if the western world's major communication channels took a dislike to your views about your rights and banned you and them.
SirVixofVixHall · 27/01/2021 15:01

@Motherdare

We already know transwomen are more likely to be attacked / killed than average

What, more likely than the actual women who are attacked and killed every day by actual men? Are you kidding me?

In the UK you are more likely to be a murderer, as a transwoman, than to be murdered.
SirVixofVixHall · 27/01/2021 15:02

@ErrolTheDragon

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion

Nah. Their stance is one of exclusion of women who have the temerity to so much as question males appropriating women's rights.

This
PhoebeSnow · 27/01/2021 15:03

@cheeseismydownfall

To be clear:

Transwomen are a subset of MEN.

If transwomen do not feel safe accessing the facilities provided for their sex, then this is in fact a MEN'S rights issue, and what we have here is men campaigning to access women's spaces because it suits them.

Women's rights are not men's rights to give away.

Well said
Impatiens · 27/01/2021 15:11

It is not transphobic to discuss the need for single sex spaces

Exactly. Denouncing Women for this fake 'transphobia' is just another tactic to silence debate.

OvaHere · 27/01/2021 15:13

On a serious note, we may need to start a thread in AIBU on the absolute lack of scientific data in all of the TWAW shite.

Quite. There's a saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We are being asked to believe that human beings can change sex despite zero evidence this is possible.

I don't see how we can begin a reconciliation of any sort until trans rights activists start dealing with reality. It's one thing to argue that trans women should be treated as women but completely another to claim they are not and never were male.

TrialOfStyle · 27/01/2021 15:14

I've not got to the end of the thread yet (so apologies if this has been addressed).

There's mention of transwomen needing to be in women's spaces to protect them from men. If self-ID means anyone can use women's spaces, how does that protect 'genuine' transwomen from men self-IDing? Presumably it doesn't. Same with mixed space and communal spaces. It doesn't stop the likelihood of attacks on transwomen - it just puts an additional risk on women as well.

KilljoysDutch · 27/01/2021 15:14

www.policefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PF_Research-Brief_JULY-2017-FINAL-1.pdf

"Based on our review of sexual assault complaints in Atlanta,
Dallas, Miami Beach, Miami Gardens and Tucson, before and
after an official amendment to the human rights ordinance
in that locality, we did not find evidence of sexual assaults
taking place in which men, under the guise of being women
or transgender, entered women’s bathrooms to commit a
sexual assault or otherwise victimize women."

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/north-carolina-trans-sexual-assault-raleigh-bathroom-bill-women-charged-a8718796.html

Protect women from other women in the bathroom!

www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment

"The claim is a myth: Multiple investigations have found states and schools that have had legal protections for trans people for years have never linked an instance of sexual assault or harassment in a bathroom to trans-friendly policies. (The only bathroom harassment historically related to trans people, in fact, seems to be harassment and discrimination against trans people.)"

ShotgunShack · 27/01/2021 15:17

Twitter’s stance on inclusion:

Included
Misogynists
Incels
Those who make treats of violence and death to women
Males who threaten rape and sexual assault
MAPs (as long as they don’t show evidence of acting on their desires)

Excluded
Women who ask questions about retaining their existing legal rights

OvaHere · 27/01/2021 15:19

@ShotgunShack

Twitter’s stance on inclusion:

Included
Misogynists
Incels
Those who make treats of violence and death to women
Males who threaten rape and sexual assault
MAPs (as long as they don’t show evidence of acting on their desires)

Excluded
Women who ask questions about retaining their existing legal rights

You can add images of child abuse they won't take down to that list.

Twitter are currently being sued by a minor who was raped and couldn't get twitter to remove the videos.

merrymouse · 27/01/2021 15:22

"Based on our review of sexual assault complaints in Atlanta,
Dallas, Miami Beach, Miami Gardens and Tucson, before and
after an official amendment to the human rights ordinance
in that locality, we did not find evidence of sexual assaults
taking place in which men, under the guise of being women
or transgender, entered women’s bathrooms to commit a
sexual assault or otherwise victimize women."

I think you are misunderstanding the issue, which is the loss of all single sex spaces by default.

Studies in the UK have shown that complaints of harassment are far higher where facilities are unisex

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

Buccanarab · 27/01/2021 15:23

But in this case inclusion is empty rhetoric. How is it inclusion when it's excluding women and removing their sex based rights? Why are women being banned for questioning it? That's not inclusive, is it?

How are twitter excluding women and removing their sex based rights?

They don't prevent women from joining the platform as far as I know, they also don't stop women from tweeting in general. They certainly don't have the power to remove someone's legal rights.

The reason some women are being banned for questioning trans rights is because they're doing it a way that contravenes Twitters "hateful condut policy" (that's what they call it).

It's there in black and white what Twitter will and will not accept, as are the concesquenses of breaching this policy.

If you've an issue with that policy you can try get them to change it but as I said previously they're a private enterprise and free to set their own rules about the content they wish to host.

I'm not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the trans debate, simply stating that social media platform is perfectly entitled to ban whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

Thelnebriati · 27/01/2021 15:23

@KilljoysDutch Maybe you should have looked at cases of assault in the UK.

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

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