AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

I don't think 'men will rape women anyway so we shouldn't even bother to try and have safeguards' is a compelling argument.

It's the sort of argument made by people who don't understand that many crimes are opportunistic.

If you have to go out of your way to commit a crime, most people are far less likely to bother.

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it.

I mean, by this logic - if a man wants to sexually abuse a child, he will find a way to do it, so let's scrap CRB checks on people applying to work with children because most people aren't paedophiles and they're a waste of most people's time.

Abusers have jumped through all sorts of hoops to gain access to potential victims - that's not an argument for removing the hoops.

If you want to make some kind of cost-benefit risk analysis argument, then go for it, but you need to have real, robust, data on the risks to everyone involved. But what if your data says that women have to endure an increased risk in order to reduce the risk to others? Don't you think women deserve a say in that?

Actually, as a post-script - I'm comparing male paedophiles to male rapists above, not trans people, in case anyone feels like telling lies about my post.

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

Hear hear! It should stick to the awful 'feminist' pages

Oh yes, feminism, so awful
Safegaurding is not anti trans.

Is there any evidence that a trans man or woman is any more likely to be a predator on the vulnerable than anybody else. It's like a witch hunt.

When I think of witch hunts I think of the many women (and sometimes their children) who were silenced, harassed, mutilated, tortured and killed for the crime of being women holding knowledge and speaking of their knowledge. It is one of the the most shameful and disturbing events from our history and yet rarely acknowledged as such. I expect you just plucked the analogy out of the air but it is somewhat analogous with the current situation, in that women are silenced, prevented from organising with other women and put on trial by social media and court. However to imply that any males today are in the position of witches in history is at best wrong and at worst offensive appropriation of others' suffering.

NB because transmen are female we don't tend to consider them when talking about violence against women for reasons outlined by many others in the thread

@MolyHolyGuacamole

Again, why don't explain what your issue is with womens sex rights rather than just jump in with 'here here', like a grumbling old man moaning about 'them lot at it again'.

I really think it's neither here nor there whether a changing room is accessible to trans women

The issue is whether changes in the law could make all changing rooms accessible to men, and therefore by default remove all single sex spaces.

It is disappointing, but perhaps not surprising that so many people can't understand that this is a women's rights issue.

Oohhh FWR, you are awful. But I like you!

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

THIS SHOULD CONCERN EVERY ADULT HUMAN FEMALE ON HERE and their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons and other adult human males that they have in their lives ! Don’t you try to police what concerns every woman and girl on Mumsnet or anywhere else.

Not all men are rapists
but all rapists are men

People with a penis and testicles are men.

The very, very few Transwomen who have had full surgery and genuinely pass as women slip under the radar leading quiet lives.

The activists who want to trample on the rights of women
need to be pushed back.

@wildraisins

Look, I'm getting a lot of @'s and a lot of hate on here and it's getting overwhelming so I'm not going to be sticking around after this. Perhaps the way I went about this initially was overly provocative, and I'm pretty tired and mentally drained today so I'm not on top form anyway, but trans rights is a subject very close to my heart and one that I feel is so often misunderstood.

In my view, if a man wants to sexually assault a woman, he will find a way to do it. I really think it's neither here nor there whether a changing room is accessible to trans women, and I feel like the real reason why people don't want changing rooms to be accessible to trans women is much more to do with prejudice, misunderstanding and intolerance than a genuine fear of being attacked by a trans woman.

I feel like a better way to tackle violent assaults committed by men on women (ALL women), would be to unite with trans women against violence from men in all of its forms.

But that requires an acceptance that trans women are women - which, in all honesty, is what is really being debated on this thread.

I don’t know if we have been reading the same thread. The reasons I think most women feel angry about the eradication of their rights to separate spaces is not that they have issues with transwomen, it is that many women feel that our rights as women, and our particular needs as women are being subsumed once again by male prerogative. It is misogyny, pure and simple. Women are being told suck it up buttercup for objecting to issues which are often related to male violence,both actual and feared, against women (and ,we are told , transwomen ) and when we object we are called transphobic and TERFS. Then the solutions that are offered are not designed to alleviate the violence, or to make men own it and deal with it themselves, but are solutions which involve women making accommodation to protect men from other men, soothe men’s hurt feelings and ignore the distress that is caused to other women expected to share private spaces with unknown men.

I think it is telling that your solution is for women and transwomen to unite against male violence. Possibly you are right, but violence against women has been an issue for many, many, many years, where was the support for us all that time ? Singularly absent. It appears that male violence only becomes a concern when it affects other men. Frankly us women are using up enough energy protecting ourselves and our children from male predation without being expected to extend that protection to members of the same sex who are causing the issues in the first place.

Add to that the theft and hijacking of our language , and the elimination of our presence in places where our unique physical attributes are paramount, it is not surprising that we are becoming increasingly angry at the way we are being crushed to satisfy the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population who apparently hate women so much that they can’t even allow lesbians a place of safety and dignity in the alphabet soup.

@Blubellsarebells

Oh yes, feminism, so awful Safegaurding is not anti trans.

Feminism isn't awful. I'm a feminist. But what goes on on Mumsnet only parades as feminism. Hence me putting in it quotes.

Can you define ‘anti trans stuff’ please? I’m keen to know, so that we can avoid it.

The topic for discussion here is whether asking questions on Twitter about single sexed spaces should get people banned.

(At least one trans person I know is also banned for asking about this on Twitter).

To answer the original question yes YABU to think people shouldn't be banned for voicing opinions that go against a platforms posting policy.

I'm not sure why we have to go through this every time someone/something is removed from twitter.

Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Mumsent and every other SM platform are private entities and are free to decide what they want to be published on their platforms. There's no obligation for them to allow anyone's views to be aired and they can ban people for whatever reason they want.

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion and if you're not happy with their policies on this go join a, or start your own, platform that supports your views. Although as Parlor demonstrated be careful what you wish for.

I know the discussion has moved on in 22 pages but it's worth reiterating.

It is rare to find this much privilege squashed in two tiny posts @MolyHolyGuacamole and @SeasonFinale. But you two take the too prize.

Bravo on reinstating this thread to where it should be - out in daylight - it isn't some esoteric conundrum that needs to be discussed in dark corners of the internet. This is a subject that affects all of us and our dc and we need to be informed in a clear and rational way.

To ask for kindness towards those that are different does not require women and girls to hand over their sex based rights to privacy etc.etc....

The questions need full glare of daylight - the amount of people I've come across that still believe that all transwomen have or are in the process of surgical transition is well, basically everyone really!

Reason being most people don't discuss this issue as it seems like an undignified bun fight in a corner that no-one wants to hear about, but it isn't - that's the power of twitter etc to create false narratives. This is a discussion for everyone to understand and think about and be open minded to possibly changing what they thought they thought they knew....

The question for the general population is spoken about on unequal information and that suits one side of the discussion 100%.

@Thewithesarehere

It is rare to find this much privilege squashed in two tiny posts *@MolyHolyGuacamole and @SeasonFinale*. But you two take the too prize.

Don’t they just take the biscuit!

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion

@Buccanarab

But in this case inclusion is empty rhetoric. How is it inclusion when it's excluding women and removing their sex based rights? Why are women being banned for questioning it? That's not inclusive, is it?

Oohhh FWR, you are awful. But I like you!

You're showing your age @DialSquare

Twitter have obviously decided their stance on the trans debate is one of inclusion and if you're not happy with their policies on this go join a, or start your own, platform that supports your views.

It's pretty clear that Twitter have decided that their stance on this issue is one of sexism.

Unfortunately the US is one of the most structurally sexist countries in the world, but it self identifies as 'progressive', and twitter reflects that.

@PhoebeSnow I ran out of buiscuits a while ago.
On a serious note, we may need to start a thread in AIBU on the absolute lack of scientific data in all of the TWAW shite.

Inclusion is just a word. It could equally apply to a campaign to educate males out of making transwomen feel uncomfortable in the men's toilets.

It's pretty clear that Twitter have decided that their stance on this issue is one of sexism.

Yes. And that's all-too apparent through looking at the other side of the coin: the many, many threats of violence, doxing, sexual attack and 'cancellation' levelled at any woman who dares question this ideology in the mildest and most moderate of terms. Those posts are mostly allowed to stand.

It's been pointed out on FWR before, that it's interesting those who claim not to know what a woman is also know exactly where to aim the rape threats.

Transmen and transwomen are protected from discrimination based upon their gendered behaviour or self ID, but the comparator for that discrimination is their sex, not the sex that they wish to colonise. Eg a transwoman cannot be banned from accessing any services aimed at men.

@SomewhereInbetween1

That questions incites people to direct their anger at the wrong group. Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

Sorry but trans women are not women.