AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

Please can someone also tell me why a TW is more likely to be a threat to me than Dave, or indeed any other person?

They are not more likely to be more of a threat than Dave. But Dave isn't allowed in female spaces because Dave is in the higher risk sex class of male, as are all transwomen.

Unless you can tell me at what objective point, upon which we can make law, a male who identifies as female comes out of the higher risk class of male and into the lower risk class of female?

What are the criteria for that?

Is it full GRS? Top surgery? Long hair, makeup, a dress? Or is it just their own declaration that they are actually a woman? And if its the latter, can you not see any problems with how that may be abused?

Morning, everyone. Just letting you know we've moved this over to FWR from AIBU.

OK... but a) we're not allowing men in. We're allowing trans women in
and b) Do you have a link please to a news article or an actual report of an attack on a cis female by a trans female in a female changing room? We are not talking about gender neutral here

But all that does is show the dishonesty of your position. Men is the word to describe adult human male. Transwomen are adult human males, because of their sex.. The current definition of transwoman is literally any male who says he identifies as a woman. That is a definition so wide as to be meaningless. Especially as the current ideology says gender expression is different from identity. This means no woman can challenge any male in a female space, no matter how stereotypically male presenting they are. If you claim not to see the safeguarding risks in this then I cannot understand that as anything other than a deliberate self-deception.
And gender neutral and gender segregated are the same thing. They are both mixed sex. So please don't try to pretend the assaults on women and girls in gender neutral spaces aren't a result of the position that you hold. 90% of assaults were in gender neutral. That's 90% of assaults that would not have happened if sex segregated facilities had been maintained.

And its not just an assault - many women do not, for obvious reasons, want to be naked in front of men. They understand male voyeurism adn feel uncomfortable. All women will have a history of sexually aggressive behaviour, from men and feel uncomfortable naked around males. Rape and sexual assault is common. Female victims of sexual assault are likely to be particularly averse to being naked in front of men they are not in intimate relationships with. Does none of this matter to you?

But being as you appear to be trying to reduce the argument down to such a position that you hope they are no examples, here are some
chrome-extension://ohfgljdgelakfkefopgklcohadegdpjf/www.lc.org/PDFs/LC-Predators-in-Bathrooms-Feb-2017-edited-4-10-17.pdf

@nanbread

Also have people really been suspended over just asking this question?

Haven't read beyond this, but yes. In the last couple of days.

She asked the question & could never get an answer from some of those who advocate for TW in women's single-sex facilities. They started by ignoring the question/ abandoning the discussion.

Then they progressed to trying to shame her into silence (by giving her an abusive nickname, opening/renaming at least one account using that & her name, accusing her of being obsessed with penises, accusing her of being a pedophile & wanting to keep teenage girls to herself, saying they feared for their own/any teenage girl's safety around her, etc, etc). These accusations were, of course, rubbish. She didn't shut up.

Then they started claiming that there are no communal changing rooms anywhere, so the question was irrelevant. Then that no teenage girl would/should ever be in a communal changing room.

You'll notice that at no point did they simply answer the question about their own opinion on the matter. Everyone is entitled to an opinion - so why the reluctance?

In the end they managed to get the woman's account suspended, & they celebrated. As far as I know, she did nothing apart from upsetting people by asking them a question they didn't answer. The only thing I've seen as an explanation for her suspension was a record of her asking this question.

Why would we not just have a member of staff in the room? What’s to stop a male from going in and assaulting a woman in a normal toilet when it’s quiet?

Nothing at all apart from passers by might notice them going into a ladies loo and wonder what they were up to. If you saw a man follow a young girl into a ladies looking wouldn't you take notice? It's great that this is not an issue for you but you don't get to tell the rest of us where our boundaries should be.

@HebeMumsnet

Morning, everyone. Just letting you know we've moved this over to FWR from AIBU.

Why?

Why was this moved?

Interesting, @MNHQ. Yet the constant 'report thy neighbour' Coronavirus threads, regurgitated on a loop on AIBU which numerous posters claim they'd rather avoid to preserve their own mental health, are not transferred to the appropriate board despite polite requests to you. They remain where they are on AIBU.

I hear you.

Either that or Stonewall is a regressive, misogynist organisation, that shouldn't be giving advice to anyone.

Anti-homosexual these days also.

Why would we not just have a member of staff in the room? What’s to stop a male from going in and assaulting a woman in a normal toilet when it’s quiet?

Honestly, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, it’s a perfectly viable solution that respects everyone’s right to privacy. There are solutions that work if you’re actually willing to look for them and not just panic over the smallest details.

If lockable cubicles are so safe, then why can't transwomen just use the mens?

So people are happy to enjoy the benefits of everything women in this board are fighting for but they don't wanna read about it

@HebeMumsnet

Morning, everyone. Just letting you know we've moved this over to FWR from AIBU.

I'm actually quite surprised about this. I thought I was being sarcastic earlier when I posted about us being sent back to our designated area.

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Yet the long thread about Biden signing off of decimating women's sports was allowed to stay on AIBU? What's the difference, @mnhq?

Have you never been to any council owned swimming pools? They are this exact setup - open spaces with multiple lockable cubicles for individuals to go get changed in. Perfectly acceptable.

Some are perfectly acceptable, but there have questions about safety in ones where there isn't also appropriate staff nearby or another way to alert help if there is an emergency.

I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

The same Stonewall that when 3 gay men were murdered last year in a homophobic attack, they decided to call them "LGBT people"? Who had little to say about the murderer when he didn't fit their ideal of who perpetuates that type of violence that we can speak out against? I don't really trust them to speak with any coherency or have much care for vulnerable people beyond using them to score points.

Calling trans women as a whole the most vulnerable group ignores what crime data we do have in the UK -- and it's okay to care for people even though they're not the 'most vulnerable'. Safeguarding has to care about everyone.

@HebeMumsnet why have you moved it? The op has asked if her opinion is unreasonable? Do you move every AIBU that has cross over with another topic? I’ve never seen one about how holiday costs should be split (for example) moved to travel- what’s the difference?

@wildraisins could you let me know your response to whether I as a rape survivor am transphobic because I feel vulnerable and nervous if in an intimate space with someone with a penis, regardless of that person’s gender identity, and regardless of whether I rationally believe that person poses a risk.

Why has this been moved?

Quelle surprise.

Does that mean the poll is gone too?

It was 90-10 in favour of YANBU, at the time of being moved.

@WeatherwaxOn

It is a valid question. But.... What if the male sexed person has undergone various hormonal treatments and surgery to make them as physically close to a female sexed person as possible? Someone who genuinely lives their life as female. Where should they go? What facilities should they use?

Either with the other males or they campaign for separate facilities for them.

It makes no sense to say women and girls who have made no choices here should accept male bodied individuals who say they are trans showering with them whilst suggesting the much smaller number of males with bodies that have chosen to undergone some cosmetic surgery to achieve a resemblance to a female body should not have to shower with other male bodies

@HebeMumsnet

Morning, everyone. Just letting you know we've moved this over to FWR from AIBU.

Why? The OP clearly wanted to ask the question in AIBU

Quick, we mustnt allow women to be seen talking perfect sense on the most popular board on Mumsnet! Hide it in FWR!

Aww but surely that means the poll has gone (90% in favour of women discussing their rights on social media, 10% in favour of women STFU last time I looked) before the twitter trolls had got out of bed /timezone to come and skewer it in their favour?