AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

I don't think people on this thread are concerned about transmen

I dont think people realise trans covers everything from full on surgery to part time cross dressers.

What does 'genuinely living their life as female' mean?
@Clymene presumably they take a pay cut, are talked down to by men, and have to keep looking over their shoulder when walking alone at night.

Seriously though, there should be no suggestion that anyone with an intact penis be allowed into a women's space.

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU

It sounds as though you’ve confused ‘Anti- trans’ with ‘pro-women and children’

Surely, the answer is no communal spaces, but individual cubicles and showers?

Can we see this kind of outrage at the justice system, at cps?!

Thank you very much, but most women would like to avoid a situation where they need to use the cps. I think you need to think this through a bit more.

The people who need safeguarding are those who are vulnerable. In this particular case, trans women are more vulnerable.

Define 'trans woman', and explain who you are excluding from that definition.

[quote wildraisins]Why can't you even answer a simple question about how one can believe themselves to be female over being born biologically female?

If you think that's a simple question then you are in the wrong place. You need to educate yourself and it's not my responsibiility to do that. There is a plethora of resources for that purpose which are very easy to access. I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans[/quote]
@wildraisins

Again, treat me like I have nooo idea how to use the Internet and haven't already read through all this stuff. You tell me what it is to feel like/believe yourself to be a woman rather just biologically be one. When a male born person goes to the doctors and says 'I am a woman' - what explanation is given?

It gets really boring being told to 'educate oneself' when there's no one out there on any site that can actually answer that specific question. We all know why as well. Either you actually don't know the answer, or if you explain it out loud its very obvious how 'thinking like a woman' has no difference from 'thinking like a stereotype of what you think a woman is'. Unless you have a different explanation?

“I think this issue could be solved by having lockable cubicles

A room, behind a closed door, filled with multiple smaller lockable rooms (cubicles) where both men and women can enter without anyone looking twice fills me with horror. Why would you give predators unrestricted access to an environment where they can lock you in to stop you escaping.“

Have you never been to any council owned swimming pools? They are this exact setup - open spaces with multiple lockable cubicles for individuals to go get changed in. Perfectly acceptable.

You've all been using bathrooms with transpeople for years and haven't noticed.

Once upon a time a trans person was defined as someone who suffered with gender dysphoria, now it's anyone who says they are trans. The trans umbrella includes many different groups including drag queens and transvestites, neither of these two groups have previously claimed gender identity issues, both groups are populated by men, who for different reasons, sometimes present themselves in stereotypical feminine clothing or as a feminine caricature. They would never have previously tried to demand the right to access women only spaces but they are now defined as trans.

We have noticed in most cases but are conditioned to be kind and polite.

I know several transpeople. One is huge bear, 6'1 with a long beard and beer belly. If he used the women's bathroom there would be outrage. He belongs in the men's.

[quote wildraisins]Why can't you even answer a simple question about how one can believe themselves to be female over being born biologically female?

If you think that's a simple question then you are in the wrong place. You need to educate yourself and it's not my responsibiility to do that. There is a plethora of resources for that purpose which are very easy to access. I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans[/quote]
People not agreeing with your opinion doesn't infer that they need to educate themselves.

It means they don't agree with you. Not that they are wrong.

I also disagree with you and do not need to be educated my you, or anything you may present as a 'resource'.

I work with facts, not beliefs.

And trans issues escape FWR 🤷🏼‍♀️

If I win the lottery I'm going to open a gym and have the changing rooms as

Vaginas
Penises

@SchadenfreudePersonified Absolutely agree. Ok, so TW are concerned about attacks by men so here's a neutral space. No, can't go in there, men can go in there.

Yes, but thanks to self ID, men can go ANYWHERE. They don't have to change a thing, can just walk in as they are and if they're challenged just say "I'm a woman too" and off they go.

Then you get the argument of men who attack won't be stopped by a door they'll just go in, if they do anything you can report it. Yeah, but with conviction rates so staggeringly low that's cold comfort to any woman attacked. Besides, wasn't the point TWs safety which goes out the window with self ID. The violent men can just follow you into the ladies, but women should not be used as shields thanks.

The bottom line is what we are being asked TOLD to do (there is no fucking ask) is to accept an increased risk of violence from men for the sake of validating the feelings of males who don't think they belong in the mens.

I don't fucking know, any suggestion of anything other than women's space open to all who feel like it is shot down with transphobe and bigot. Third spaces, nope. Private spaces, nope.

I personally would go with private all in one cubicles, with panic buttons installed, that all open into a main public corridor that is covered by CCTV. Privacy, safety, ta-da! Unfortunately a) Most business's won't have the space or money to provide that and b) even that won't be good enough for some. Nothing less than validation for being 'one of the girls'. I am not a validation tool, neither is my daughter and anyone who believes they have a right to treat us as one can fuck all the way off.

Exactly this!! A trans person has options women do not choose to be harassed by men from a young age.

I went to a girls school, and looking back now the amount of disgusting men that used to hang about my school, and try and be inappropriate with the girls is shocking, when you are a teenager, you don’t give it much thought, just laugh at the creepy men and walk away, but now looking back as an adult, the amount of times grown men would be inappropriate while we used to walk back home from school in our u uniforms is shocking, some of those same men, will try and go into a women's bathroom if they got given half the chance to do so. Girls and women have to feel safe, and not worry in a toilet whether someone is watching her, or worse yet....

If you think that's a simple question then you are in the wrong place. You need to educate yourself and it's not my responsibiility to do that. There is a plethora of resources for that purpose which are very easy to access. I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

Do you mean the same Stonewall who are campaigning to remove single sex exemptions from the Equality Act, which would mean that women would never be able to have a single sex space or facility ever? Meaning that if a woman had been raped and asked for a female forensic examiner, she might end up with a male examining her, because that male identifies as female? Meaning that it would be illegal for a women's refuge to ever refuse males? Meaning that a male rapist would have to be housed in a female prison if he identified as a woman?

That Stonewall?

Thanks, but I think I'll pass.

Even if the whole of twitter pops along to this thread and skews the poll, it won't change the fact humans are a sexually dimorphic species. Even if our patriarchal society regresses to a point where we are no longer allowed any common understanding of certain words with which to argue our point on mumsnet, this biological fact will not change. Nor will it if those same twitter mobs attack the advertisers and harass mumsnet out of existence.

And to those penis bearers entering any single sex female space, whether by dominance or force or coercion or subterfuge or because women's rights have been destroyed in law, well that space simply ceases to be single sex.

Penis bearers may well win this one, existing as we do in a patriarchy. But what they win will be the further subjugation of women, nothing more. They cannot change reality. And I am scared for the future of my beautiful multicultural city if humans forget how to practice living side by side in tolerance and instead impose the belief system of whoever is bigger and stronger.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being trans and no reason we all can't co exist with tolerance of each other's differing beliefs. Plenty of trans people know this and are vocally in support of women on twitter but they don't get the TV and Guardian platforms afforded to the trans people and activists who insist that trans rights can only be upheld if we all follow their belief system.

rather than jumping on the TERF bandwagon and attacking trans people.

@wildraisins point to ONE post on here where trans people have been attacked. Just one will do.

Again, please someone find me an example of when this has actually happened.

Where a cis woman has been sexually or physically assaulted by a trans woman.

I'm not a "cis" woman, but one third of my rapists - all of whom are intact males - identify as women.

And I agree with OP: banning women from social media for the heinous crime of asking questions is appalling.

It's not simply about toilets, or changing rooms.

It's about all women shortlists.
Promotion lists
Prisons.
Sports groups - Amateur AND Professional.
Charity groups.
Etc

Feel free to add your own.

By Stonewall definitions, I'm trans. Because my gender (which is 'largely culturally determined') does not sit comfortably with my sex.

I do not have an innate sense of my own gender, because I believe gender is a largely culturally determined pile of bollocks, therefore I do not have a gender identity.

Pretty useful, this Stonewall stuff. I'm less keen on their campaigning to remove single-sex spaces, though. As someone who by their own definitions is trans, do you think they'd be interested in my opinion?

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

but why is it transphobic to ask simple question?

The people who need safeguarding are those who are vulnerable. In this particular case, trans women are more vulnerable.

@wildraisins

Considering the numbers, how have you come to the conclusion that transwomen are more vulnerable than biological women? You're just throwing out words with absolutely no critical thinking behind them, no educated knowledge, no facts, just your right-on beliefs that transpeople are the most marginalised in this country/world. You are extremely wrong, have no basic understanding of the equality act, what equality is, or even seemingly understand the difference between sex and gender and how they need to be treated differently.

Shouting out offensive terms and crying bigotry and ignorance of others is only showing your own lack of understanding. People cannot all be lumped together on the bases of 'be kind'. Equality doesn't mean fairness, and since women and transwomen are not the same what is fair to one will not be to another.

@FOJN

I think this issue could be solved by having lockable cubicles

A room, behind a closed door, filled with multiple smaller lockable rooms (cubicles) where both men and women can enter without anyone looking twice fills me with horror. Why would you give predators unrestricted access to an environment where they can lock you in to stop you escaping.

Why would we not just have a member of staff in the room? What’s to stop a male from going in and assaulting a woman in a normal toilet when it’s quiet?

Honestly, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, it’s a perfectly viable solution that respects everyone’s right to privacy. There are solutions that work if you’re actually willing to look for them and not just panic over the smallest details.

From your link wildraisins

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans

"Cis is short for ‘cisgender’ which means somebody whose gender identity matches the sex they were given at birth."

Given that gender is a social construct based on restrictive and regressive expectations of how a man or woman should dress and behave, one can only assume that very few people are cis, and that everyone else is trans.

Either that or Stonewall is a regressive, misogynist organisation, that shouldn't be giving advice to anyone.