AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

using that third space would "out" you

The point is that no one cares. Especially not strangers in the very transient space of a loo where you'll likely not see those same people again. Present how you want to present, wear the clothes you want to wear. I'll willingly respect your choice of name and pronoun as long as you don't expect me to announce mine. People's individual identity is not as important to bystanders as those individuals appear to think it is. Seriously, most people don't give a shit.

It's when they try to ride roughshod over another vulnerable group's hard-won rights and boundaries, when they even try to erase 'woman' as some kind of dirty word, that people are apt to get pissed off. And they are pissed off. There's a growing backlash and it's thankfully being endorsed by legal precedent.

As for vulnerability to violence and murder, think about the greatest killer of women on a global scale. Is it malaria? Cancer? Heart disease? If your response is 'no' to all three, you've won a cookie. The answer is 'men'.

Please don't try to tell me women have 'cis' (ugh!) privilege, and therefore have no need for or right to the privacy of sex-segregated spaces. As to the 'abusers will abuse regardless of spaces' copout, a good deal of crime is opportunist.

This

There should me male , female , unisex or ideally all changing rooms and toilets should just be individual cubicles. We should all have choice

How about people taking responsibility for their own behaviour, and keeping out of places they’re not wanted, like millions of decent men do every day?

Couldn't have phrased it better.

I know a lot of Transwomen, i can assure you, not ONE of them has ANY kind of intention of abusing/raping a woman, and i have absolutely no issue in sharing shower/bathroom space with them, and have done at various conventions where we've used the spaces swimming pools/public toilets.

So what?

I know a lot of men, none of whom are rapists or predators. Including my own husband, father and father in law.

Doesnt mean I think they should be allowed access to female spaces 🤷‍♀️

For me this debate has gone way beyond who can go in toilets.

It is the silencing of women and no debating the safety of women.

@wildraisins it is of course terrible that any transwomen should suffer an attack at the hands of men. But why should women and girls (the link was a 10 year old girl being abused ffs) have to put themselves at risk to solve a problem of male violence?

If transwomen want to truly be allies of women then they would understand this. They wouldn't put their wants above the safety of women and girls and they would see that addressing male violence / third spaces are a solution that addresses everyones concerns.

@wildraisins

You demand evidence and it's given to you. The assaults on women and children apparently don't count or matter , and then when its shown without a doubt you still shout 'but what about transpeople!!!'. Why are you happy to play down assaults on women and children in the name of protecting transpeople's beliefs? The numbers are extremely clear - women and girls are by far more vulnerable in society than transpeople and need sex based protection. That isn't transphobic, its basic safeguarding.

Why can't you even answer a simple question about how one can believe themselves to be female over being born biologically female?

So that no other lady needed to see her penis.

If you haven't peak transed already, just read that again. Her penis.

What a load of fucking bollocks. Pun fully intended. If you want to dress in women's clothing and call yourself Belinda, crack on. I shall support your rights to express yourself in the way you wish to the end. Nobody should be abused or subjected to violence because of how they choose to express themselves. Nobody.

But no, I don't accept that you can change sex, or in the concept of "lady penis".

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Please can someone tell me why a TW is less likely to be a threat to me or my DD than Dave who lives across the road? Dave may not wear a frock but I swear he's a true gent.

Please can someone also tell me why a TW is more likely to be a threat to me than Dave, or indeed any other person?

Honestly, people get so worked up about this because they are scared of anything that is different. Why not try giving it a chance before you all panic? Have you personally ever been negatively affected by the presence of a trans person? If so... was that because of anything they were actually doing? Or was it just how you felt? Being offended by someone else's presence/ existence is your own issue to work on, not theirs.

How many of you actually know a trans person? How many of you have ever spoken to a trans person and can purport to understand anything about them and their struggles and their lives, other than what you read in the media or hear from others?

If I believed that trans people were regularly assaulting women then obviously I'd have a problem with that. But the truth is they are not, and trans people are much more likely to be the victim of an assault than basically any other group within society.

Completely agree Hidingunderarock.

@BrumBoo

Honestly the amount of people who don't understand basic safeguarding is staggering

We keep all males out of female spaces because there is no way of knowing who the bad ones are.

It really is that simple.

And OP you are absolutely right.

What is the fear and where does it come from?

Men are the fear. It comes from them having a long history of abusing women.

People are scared of what they don't understand. There is a plethora of resources about gender and sex online, I don't need to educate anyone here because you are all presumably intelligent people who can go away and read about it if you want to.

What's not to understand? I understand perfectly. I'm still vulnerable when male people invade my space.

I am simply tired of having these debates with people who lack understanding and probably have never actually spoken to a real trans person.

I've spoken to more than one transwoman. It neither increased nor diminished my concern over male people in female spaces. Should it have?

@wildraisins

Really you need to get a grip on how safeguarding works.

Why can't you even answer a simple question about how one can believe themselves to be female over being born biologically female?

If you think that's a simple question then you are in the wrong place. You need to educate yourself and it's not my responsibiility to do that. There is a plethora of resources for that purpose which are very easy to access. I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

www.stonewall.org.uk/truth-about-trans

I feel like this debate always gets so strange. You've all been using bathrooms with transpeople for years and haven't noticed. Which is exactly how it should be.
I don't believe the issue is transmen in women's spaces. It's women being sick to death of being abused and no one ever fucking doing anything. Can we see this kind of outrage at the justice system, at cps?!
Personally I couldn't give a flying fig where you pee, as long as you leave me alone.

Please can someone also tell me why a TW is more likely to be a threat to me than Dave, or indeed any other person?

Nobody is saying that a TW is more of a threat than Dave. I don't know. So .... I don't want Dave in my female spaces. And I don't want any TW either.

Serious question in the hope that there will be an anthropologist along to answer it.

Is there a culture/ society/ nation anywhere in the world which has never offered or required separate loos/ changing rooms for men (people with XY chromosomes and male sex characteristics) and women (XY chromosomes and female sex charactierstics)? If there is, is there general respect for, and equal rights for, women?

To answer the OP, of course one should be able to ask and answer that question on Twitter and FB without being banned. It's quite useful, actually — proves what we've all known all along, that FB and Twitter etc are just new arms of the patriarchy.

I think this issue could be solved by having lockable cubicles

A room, behind a closed door, filled with multiple smaller lockable rooms (cubicles) where both men and women can enter without anyone looking twice fills me with horror. Why would you give predators unrestricted access to an environment where they can lock you in to stop you escaping.

I feel like this debate always gets so strange. You've all been using bathrooms with transpeople for years and haven't noticed. Which is exactly how it should be.

No. It's nothing fucking like it should be.

What are these rights that women want to protect though?

As well as all the other examples already mentioned, women (females) have the right to organise politically to fight for sex based rights and services. If we can't name our sex exclusive of males how can we fight for our needs?

Girl guides and other females only groups, which are legally allowed, are now told they must include males to be 'inclusive'. Any that refuse are hounded by TRA's.
Just look at the women's pool in Syndey recently. 35 other unisex pools in the area but no, the penis owners with all their male entitlement had to have access to that one.
Fuck all to do with 'inclusivity' and all to do with power.

Sex is a protected characteristic. Not 'gender'.
Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic. Heterosexual males calling themselves lesbians is homophobic and incredibly misogynistic.

I just find threads like this incredibly sad as they show how far we as a society still have to go with gender rights

What the actual fuck are gender rights? Seriously? You want to protect people's right to project a sex role stereotype? Legally protect someone's personality? Dress sense?

No one gives a shit how people present or what they call themselves. We give a shit at being forced to pretend our own sex based reality is nothing but a feeling and that men are women. Told are words are forbidden incase they hurt someone's fucking feelings.

Not my job to 'validate' another adults chosen identity or be responsible for a stranger's poor mental health.

But the truth is they are not, and trans people are much more likely to be the victim of an assault than basically any other group within society.

Incorrect. Men are the most likely to be assaulted (by other men). They're more likely to be the victim of most violent crimes other than rape and sexual assault.

The rate of assaults however doesn't give much of the impact such violence has on a group and the power dynamics involves.

"If I believed that trans people were regularly assaulting women then obviously I'd have a problem with that."
How regular would this have to be for it to be a problem.
Obviously the one 10 year old girl thats been used as evidence and the women raped in prison dont count.
How many women and girls will it take for them to start counting to you?
We can complain before we're being physically assaulted.
We're allowed to say no.
Males who ignore that no, and trample womens boundaries are exactly the people we need to be keeping out.

You need to educate yourself and it's not my responsibiility to do that. There is a plethora of resources for that purpose which are very easy to access. I recommend Stonewall as a starting point.

Hahahahahahahahaha

@SirenSays

I feel like this debate always gets so strange. You've all been using bathrooms with transpeople for years and haven't noticed. Which is exactly how it should be. I don't believe the issue is transmen in women's spaces. It's women being sick to death of being abused and no one ever fucking doing anything. Can we see this kind of outrage at the justice system, at cps?! Personally I couldn't give a flying fig where you pee, as long as you leave me alone.

Another one with Emperor's New Clothes syndrome. The same people who pretend they cant see sex are the same who say they can't see skin colour. It's bloody offensive.

@SirenSays

I feel like this debate always gets so strange. You've all been using bathrooms with transpeople for years and haven't noticed. Which is exactly how it should be. I don't believe the issue is transmen in women's spaces. It's women being sick to death of being abused and no one ever fucking doing anything. Can we see this kind of outrage at the justice system, at cps?! Personally I couldn't give a flying fig where you pee, as long as you leave me alone.

I don't believe the issue is transmen in women's spaces.

I don't think people on this thread are concerned about transmen.

YABU because you are being inherently anti trans.

If someone has undergone gender reassignment surgery and is in all appearances and behaviours a woman, then in my opinion they are very welcome in women’s showers etc.

I personally don’t think it’s right that someone with male genitalia should be using open showers in a women’s room, unless they are keeping their genitalia under a swimsuit. It’s probably not fair on them but it’s more unfair on teens and vulnerable women otherwise.

But I’ll probably get flamed for actually thinking that trans women and biological women can co-exist with rights retained for both parties.