To Refuse To Marry?

[boggyd]

My partner and I have been in an international relationship for 4 years, and have lived together for the past 8 months. Up until recently, our relationship had been one of strong, independent equals. My partner was living in the UK on a work visa. Both my partner and I had high-income jobs, with their earnings slightly more than mine.
6 months ago, my partner said they wanted to leave their job in order to focus on artistic pursuits, something that they were unwilling to be flexible on, but that I wanted to support them with. This would mean that they would lose their visa. We looked at our options, and it seemed like it would only be possible to secure a visa through marriage, something I was reticent about but willing to consider.
Having learnt more about the financial implications of marriage in the UK, I am beginning to have serious doubts. I have significantly higher assets (5 to 1, seven figures) than my partner, and it seems like these will be difficult to fully protect even if we attempt an English prenup.
My partner is unwilling to have children, so that is not a factor. This means the only legal benefit to marriage would be to secure a visa, whilst I would need to be willing to comingle our assets and be the only income earner. If I do not agree to this marriage my partner will have to leave the country.
Our relationship is a good one, and I fear that I'm approaching this marriage in too cold a way, but at the same time I feel like I have to be realistic about what it would actually mean. Would I be unreasonable to refuse? I feel like my partner has left me with no good options.

Just read the OP. It’s not two months.

How is it not two months??
They've been together 4 years.
They've lived together for 8 months.
6 months ago the partner said they wanted to leave their job to focus on artistic pursuits.
So, in other words, 2 months after moving in the partner decided they wanted to leave their job.

@tara66

I have witnessed a relationship similar to yours. Couple are now in the process of divorce. The high earner support the painter (failed) for 10 years with everything they needed to ''get on'' with their ''painting'' . They did have degree in Art History. This artist only cared about art and their painting. They had a Uk prenup. but that wasn't worth the paper it's written on. The earning partner had parents buy a property which was in a Trust for 10 years - that meant nothing. After 10 years the earning partner decided they did not want to live with the artist anymore and because artist had very low income the earner is losing a great deal financially and this will carry on through the years with pensions and other claims. Divorce is no picnic in these sort of cases.

If the prenup is genuinely worthless that means it wasn't drawn up properly, or they didn't seek independent legal advice, or there was not a full financial disclosure, or the agreement is clearly unfair. My guess, given the things you've said, is that the agreement did not give the painter enough to meet his reasonable needs. But it isn't clear from what you've written whether the court has ruled on the finances or this is a negotiated settlement.

boggyd

Do not do this.
You want kids at some time in the future.
The relationship already feels ‘dependable’ rather than passionate.
You have cold feet about making your assets vulnerable.

Compromising your assets, your future as a parent, sharing your income to enable the dream of another?

Your partner should not be asking this if you. Totally exploitative. Tell them to get another job!

Do Not Get Married!

@boggyd Never EVER pick a partner over having a child. Never. I ended a marriage when my now exH told me 'By the way, I don't ever want children' AFTER we were married. At least you have that knowledge now.

And you have no 'duty' to support this person. Hell, I wouldn't feel I had a 'duty' to support anyone who suddenly announced they wanted to quit working to pursue some 'passion' and expected me to support them. Nor would I expect someone to support me if I suddenly decided I wanted to be an actress or a poet. Just what 'artistic endeavor' does this person want to pursue? Do they have the talent and/or training needed to pursue it? Heck, I'd love to sing opera but I'd never be Kiri Te-Kanawa no matter how hard I tried.

The decision for one partner to stay home needs to be enthusiastically agreed to by BOTH partners. Whether it's because both people want a SAHP for their children or because they both want someone at home as a full time 'homemaker' and quasi-personal assistant so the other doesn't have to bother with domestic 'stuff'. But that's not the situation here, OP definitely is NOT enthusiastic.

I think OP has doubts that the relationship will last if he/she insists that the 'dp' continues working. It's the old 'I don't want to be alone so I'll put up with whatever they dish out' attitude. OP deserves better.

What a weird post OP deliberately vague about details plus thread runs to 10 pages and they've responded once.

@LolaSmiles

Although tbh the sexes may be relevant since there is also a difference in opinion about wanting DCs. Women have a shorter, viable timeframe for becoming mothers than men have for being fathers. Sexes are still irrelevant because even ignoring the children question, one partner has conveniently decided they want to be financially propped up by their partner so they can do their hobby and have also conveniently engineered the situation so the only way the relationship can move forward is to marry in a country where they could live a life of leisure in marriage and then leave the marriage with substantial assets in the event of a divorce.

It doesn't make sex irrelevant. You're focusing on the finances and leisure aspect but the differences over wanting DCs is also relevant to a decision about marriage. I've already said that if OP's partner wants a visa then they should find a job, not get married. But the children issue is another reason why they shouldn't get married.

Don’t marry. Your DP needs to sort their own working visa because it’s not fair to financially depend on you just so they can enjoy their hobby. You have a lot to lose, but they will only gain.

Tell DP that you’re not ready to marry and you don’t want to marry just for a visa. You feel taken advantage of. Explain that they need to apply for a valid working visa and do their artistic hobby on the side.

If you would like to have children and your partner doesn't, don't get married to this person - end the relationship and find someone who would like to have children with you. And no, you are not responsible for him/her either, your main responsibility is to look after yourself and your interests and goals - which seem to be different than your partner's.

YANBU.

I had significantly more capital, in the form of equity in my house, when I married my ex. When the fucker finally agreed to a divorce, the divorce settlement cost me just shy of £100k.

Lol your partner is taking the absolute piss. Do not put your security under such risk for a person who you will not be compatible with long term.

No no and no. I've been financially independent for my working life, however my exh decided he liked that and I became his own private 'bank' he'd spend all his money on his hobbies and I'd end up paying for the boring stuff and saving, as he wasn't. I kept telling him to sort his pension, but I think he thought mine would see him through his old age, and why would be put money away, he had me to pay for the bills and pensions. When we got divorced he went for half of everything! House, savings pension etc and he was entitled to it too. So he got 'double bubble' spent all his money whilst I saved, paid for the boring essentials, and went without, then walked away with half.

I'm back on my feet now and so much better off than he is now, but it's a hard lesson to learn. I'd say unless kids were involved and your were a sahp then you have far more to lose than him, especially as he's essentially given up work to pursue his 'hobby' it may sound mercenary but if he truly cares about you he'll understand why you won't marry him, especially now

"They can be the stay at home parent, looking after the children, household and doing their ‘art’ at the same time".

Ah, life is wonderful in a fantasy....

Hi OP. Honestly, from what you have said, if I were you I wouldn’t get married to this person. Leaving a well paid job to pursue an artistic pursuit they have little experience in doesn’t sound like they have a good plan and could end up being a burden on your relationship. It is their choice to give up their job and visa and it’s not your responsibility to support them in this endeavour and make it happen for them. This is not the basis of a happy and lasting marriage.

I sort of feel if you are having to ask the internet whether you should get married you know what the answer is!

Good luck!

What has your partner done about her artistic pursuits up to now? Does she pursue them at weekends or use holiday to do so? Have you had a conversation about what she would do if you weren't there to provide her with a home? Why isn't she looking at, for instance, moving to working part time so that she can keep her visa?

Separately, it doesn't sound as if your DP's artistic endeavours are going to work out anyway. In a relatively short period, unless you are bankrolling them to be a housewife/husband, they will end up going back to a normal job

What’s your basis for saying that? They could be massively talented and if they can succeed now ... In any event £200k can last a very long time, I bet every professional artist would have loved to have started out with that amount.

The OP is not involved in this thread at all. Very odd.

Hang on a minute. I've just read the O Post again. The timeline. The partner came to live with OP eight months ago. Six months ago, they decided they wanted to give up their job. So they only worked in this amazing high-flying job for two months? Letting down the company in which they must have been senior. Throwing away the chance to secure their future . Looking unreliable to work connections back home who probably gave them the reference.
If I was cynical, I'd wonder whether the partner ever had this job. Did they go out every summer day and sit outside in a cafe? Does OP actually know what their salary was?
Does OP actually know his partner if their international ( does this mean online) relationship was free and independent? Did they just chat online until the point when partner decided to arrive over here - maybe on a tourist visa - I'd think, if I were very cynical.

Partners with different levels of finances and assets can be happily married, but you have to want to have a future together. Marriage then helps protect the partner with the lesser finances and assets.

The OP wants to have children but doesn’t really talk about having a future together with their partner who doesn’t want children. Fair enough as your future plans are different.

But you made it sound like it’s ok to marry if it didn’t affect your assets, but now that it does, you don’t want to.
I agree, marriage shouldn’t be about ‘just’ getting a visa.
I think helping your girlfriend/boyfriend out while they are trying a new career is one thing, but if you’re not planning a long term future with them and marriage is only on the table because of a visa, then just say no it’s not for you.

Of course YANBU.

In English law, marriage is an unfair contract which punishes those who own assets, and rewards those who own none. This is entirely deliberate. The intention of the law is to protect the interests of the non-earning spouse, typically a woman, in a traditional marriage in which the man earns the money and the wife stays at home to raise the children. The law hasn’t caught up with the reality that this is an increasingly outdated concept in the 21st century.

Consequently, marriage doesn’t make sense in childless relationships for couples with a large disparity in asset ownership. In OP’s position, I wouldn’t marry either.

I don't think that timeline is necessarily correct, @Diverseopinions. The partner could have been working for the same employers abroad before she came here and started living with OP, for instance.

""I would like to have children in the future, but biologically I understand that I could wait at least 10 years to do that."

  That suggests you're  in your 20's.   Dangled on a romantic   long distance string for four years  since hardly more than a kid.   

 Is  your  partner is a great deal older than you  ?  It sounds  as if they  know  exactly what <strong>they</strong> have to gain by marrying  a naive   young UK  woman. They  seem to  know   their legal  way around Brexit,  British law,  immigration, visas and  citizenship.; far better than you do.  

On the pretext of being an (untrained) artist they have become your dependent, in order to pressure you to marry. Marrying a UK citizen is the gateway to a visa, LTR, British citizenship; free access to the NHS, and the rest of the UK state benefit system.

     You've  been groomed; now you're being backed into a corner at the registry office.

On the pretext of being an (untrained) artist they have become your dependent, in order to pressure you to marry.

What’s your evidence for this? They’re not a dependent, they have assets of six figures. Why does MN persistently make stuff up?

@Diverseopinions

Hang on a minute. I've just read the O Post again. The timeline. The partner came to live with OP eight months ago. Six months ago, they decided they wanted to give up their job. So they only worked in this amazing high-flying job for two months? Letting down the company in which they must have been senior. Throwing away the chance to secure their future . Looking unreliable to work connections back home who probably gave them the reference. If I was cynical, I'd wonder whether the partner ever had this job. Did they go out every summer day and sit outside in a cafe? Does OP actually know what their salary was? Does OP actually know his partner if their international ( does this mean online) relationship was free and independent? Did they just chat online until the point when partner decided to arrive over here - maybe on a tourist visa - I'd think, if I were very cynical.

I don't think that's the timeline.

They worked here on a visa and I take "international relationship" as "in a relationship with someone from abroad".

Walk away OP. You've been together for years but how well do you really know someone when you are in a long distance relationship? You see each other for nice holidays and extended weekends it's not the nitty gritty of everyday life that gives you a real picture of your partner. Now you are living together and your DP has shown you who they really are. Has your DP actually already quit her/his job? Does DP have artistic talent? Can you see him/her making a go of it and making soe proper money from it?

Am I the only one who gets annoyed at these threads which try to avoid giving the sex of the people away. I get why but it's really hard to read they etc, I think "who else are we talking about?"

@LolaSmiles

Why the ambiguity about gender? Because on financial threads there's often a lot of double standards (and I'm not talking about being a SAHP once children are on the scene).

For example, if a woman wants to protect her assets by choosing to marry then she should, but if a man does it then he's a financially abusive arsehole. In reality adults of both sexes are more that right to assess their financial situation and draw up their affairs in the way they want. Their other half can choose whether this is a deal breaker or not.
If a woman moves into a man's house then she shouldn't pay towards a property that isn't hers, shouldn't be contributing to his mortgage so it should be paying nothing or bills only. If a man moves into a woman's house then he should be paying her rent because otherwise he is a cocklodger as he would be paying rent if he lived alone.

Plus for this thread the sexes are irrelevant. When one partner suddenly wants propping up by the other it's a huge red flag.

The point is though, that when a hetero-couple are together (not married/no kids,) a woman in a man's house will often be pulling her weight with domestic duties, and if she is working, will contribute with buying food etc..

When a man lives in a woman's house, he often does fuckall except live there for free and expect to be waited on hand and foot. Women (in situations like this,) are not layabouts anywhere near as much as men are!

@MrsTerryPratchett

I hate they and them posts. It's like the OP trusts us enough to ask for advice but not enough to be impartial. Fucking insulting.

This. ^

As a number of posters have said, not putting the gender is just annoying, and daft, and many people can't see the point in responding. Or find it difficult to. Of COURSE the responses will be different based on whether it's a man or women, because (as I said,) men are more likely to be lazy freeloaders (in situations like this,) than women are.

@boggyd why do you not tell us what gender you are, and what gender your partner is? As a number of posters have said, this ambiguity is tiresome and boring. Also, (as a poster said upthread,) it would be nice if you were involved in your thread a bit more.