Page 5 | To wonder why men don't seem to feel "mum guilt"?

Clymene · 23/01/2021 15:59

Right, so without you picking up the childcare, he wouldn't be able to travel at short notice. That's kind of the point @redpencil77 was making.

2bazookas · 23/01/2021 16:11

More to the point, not all mums feel like this either.

I certainly never did a nightly pillow review of my maternal failings that day. (Plenty of them, but by our bed time I was more interested in sleep, or half an hour reading, or even sex).

Merename · 23/01/2021 16:15

This thread is so interesting. I’m so amazed how many of you say you don’t feel this. Of course you know what you feel, but I find it so hard to believe!! Just like you are saying OP, I find it quite hopeful to read but actually can’t imagine not feeling guilty, and how that could be part of the mum experience. I feel that I am aware of so many things that DH is not, and it is luxuriously selfish to not think of them. I also know he worries about money and stereotypically ‘provider’ things in a way I don’t, and can find his fears unrealistic, I know he feels the same about mine.

I know I have been socialised within my family and more widely, to feel that putting what I want before others is selfish and wrong. I agree with PPs who have mentioned perfectionism - definitely an issue for me. I’m curious how this question would be answered in a more robust research study.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 23/01/2021 16:17

I don’t pick the kids up or drop off ordinarily,he usually does that.
So if I can I’ll accommodate him I will ,otherwise he’ll tweak his schedule eg.leave at weekend when I home instead of weekday

DorotheaHomeAlone · 23/01/2021 16:22

This is definitely not a sex-based issue. I’ve rarely had mum guilt apart from the odd occasion when I had multiple tiny kids and lost my temper through exhaustion. My DH frets way way more but that is a personality difference. We’re the same in the rest of our lives. I’m decisive and forward looking. He’s more reflective but prone to regrets. We both love our kids equally and take an active role in their care.

VinylDetective · 23/01/2021 16:25

@redpencil77

She feels guilty for not putting herself first, e.g. if crafts are her hobby?

No she doesn’t. She feels guilty for not doing crafts with her kids. I didn’t do them with mine either, yet one of them is a professional artist. It doesn’t seem to have done him any harm.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 23/01/2021 16:31

Crafts, that’s what I send them to nursery for
I taught the kids sleeping tigers, a perennial favourite, that was a good un

Circumlocutious · 23/01/2021 16:32

There’s a biological element to this that’s somewhat taboo to mention: namely, the neurological changes that take place in a woman’s brain as she transitions to motherhood. I don’t think this negates the importance of social expectations, but we can’t just deny it either.

www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2018/07/17/pregnant-women-care-ignores-one-most-profound-changes-new-mom-faces/CF5wyP0b5EGCcZ8fzLUWbP/story.html

In one key study, a team of researchers used anatomical magnetic resonance imaging to look at the brains of women who were not pregnant but hoped to be. The researchers followed up with images soon after childbirth and again two years later. For comparison, they scanned women who had never had a pregnancy.

After childbirth, the volume of gray matter in the mothers’ brains changed dramatically, particularly in regions involved in social processes and “theory of mind,” or the ability to attribute emotions and mental states to other people — key in raising a human. The degree of change, enough that researchers could easily sort the women who had had a pregnancy from those who hadn’t, surprised Elseline Hoekzema, a lead author on the 2016 paper who studies pregnancy and the brain at Leiden University in the Netherlands.

HippoOnMyRoofEatingCake · 23/01/2021 16:35

Yeah sorry OP, but I think this is a you issue more than a man issue.

I certainly don't go to bed feeling guilty every night! And my DH certainly does reflect on his parenting and how it affects our children. I'd hate to have kids with someone who didn't!!

LolaSmiles · 23/01/2021 16:39

Socially the bar for men being fathers is much lower than for women, but I have to admit that I have started to try and adopt more of my DH's perspective.
He does 50/50 house and childcare, we both work part time, we've both taken time off during lockdown due to childcare and he is very hands on. He gets annoyed at 'jokes' about dads babysitting their children and is the first to question places if there's no baby changing facilities in the men's bathrooms etc.

His attitude is nobody does everything perfectly and every child will grow up and decide they'd do something differently when they have their own children. When a child is 10 they aren't going to care whether they did a instagram worthy sensory afternoon at home and as long as the clothes are clean, how many children are going to be scarred for life if the laundry sits on the airer for another 24 hours whilst we play and have food? I think he's probably right. So much of the guilt mums feel is because society tells us that equality is us working and doing everything else, and then making women feel inadequate for not doing it and perfectly. I'm quite glad DH reminded me the whole thing is bollocks.

redpencil77 · 23/01/2021 16:41

@Circumlocutious

There’s a biological element to this that’s somewhat taboo to mention: namely, the neurological changes that take place in a woman’s brain as she transitions to motherhood. I don’t think this negates the importance of social expectations, but we can’t just deny it either.

www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2018/07/17/pregnant-women-care-ignores-one-most-profound-changes-new-mom-faces/CF5wyP0b5EGCcZ8fzLUWbP/story.html

In one key study, a team of researchers used anatomical magnetic resonance imaging to look at the brains of women who were not pregnant but hoped to be. The researchers followed up with images soon after childbirth and again two years later. For comparison, they scanned women who had never had a pregnancy.

After childbirth, the volume of gray matter in the mothers’ brains changed dramatically, particularly in regions involved in social processes and “theory of mind,” or the ability to attribute emotions and mental states to other people — key in raising a human. The degree of change, enough that researchers could easily sort the women who had had a pregnancy from those who hadn’t, surprised Elseline Hoekzema, a lead author on the 2016 paper who studies pregnancy and the brain at Leiden University in the Netherlands.

The "forgetfulness" you get when you're pregnant - pregnancy brain...

redpencil77 · 23/01/2021 16:44

@LolaSmiles

Socially the bar for men being fathers is much lower than for women, but I have to admit that I have started to try and adopt more of my DH's perspective. He does 50/50 house and childcare, we both work part time, we've both taken time off during lockdown due to childcare and he is very hands on. He gets annoyed at 'jokes' about dads babysitting their children and is the first to question places if there's no baby changing facilities in the men's bathrooms etc.

His attitude is nobody does everything perfectly and every child will grow up and decide they'd do something differently when they have their own children. When a child is 10 they aren't going to care whether they did a instagram worthy sensory afternoon at home and as long as the clothes are clean, how many children are going to be scarred for life if the laundry sits on the airer for another 24 hours whilst we play and have food? I think he's probably right. So much of the guilt mums feel is because society tells us that equality is us working and doing everything else, and then making women feel inadequate for not doing it and perfectly. I'm quite glad DH reminded me the whole thing is bollocks.

Yes, we all need to be like this. Its just women know - consciously or not - that they are being judged, from the minute they are born, because they have the physiology for pregnancy

SueEllenMishke · 23/01/2021 16:55

Societal expectations- simple as 🤷🏼‍♀️

Runningshorts · 23/01/2021 16:57

So interesting, I have terrible mum guilt but I never had any anxiety before having my first child. DC1 gives me plenty to worry about and I never feel that I've done well enough. DH (probably quite rightly) is completely oblivious to any of this stuff.

Yohoheaveho · 23/01/2021 17:47

Dads tend to shout, push the blame back on the school with little outcome
of course they do, they dont want to school to make a habit of phoning them, who in their right mind makes a rod for their own back
oh no shut that shit down pronto.... make sure it's an unpleasant and unfruitful experience for the school and next time they'll contact the mother

MoreMorelos · 23/01/2021 17:51

I don't have mum guilt, I have reasonable expectations of myself and realise I can only do so much. On the other hand my DH works away and ties himself in knots at times with guilt over things he misses (don't come at me with changing his job blah blah blah, it is what it is)

diamondsr4u · 23/01/2021 17:53

Not all men the same.
My dh defo has this 'mum guilt' he will feel bad if he had to tell them off about something, will go make it up to them, he will never let them fall asleep upset with him. If there was a particular activity the kids wanted to do and he didn't do it with them, he will feel bad and make sure he does it with them the next day.

Ladywinesalot · 23/01/2021 19:16

Because women are meant to live upto some sort of unattainable standard of perfect, and all men have to do is work a 9-5 and stay married.

Living standards and expectations are so stupidly high now a days we are all just chasing each other’s tail around the harden.

Ask parents from the 70’s and 80’s how much they did which their kids and how many exotic holidays they went on in a year?

We are set up to fail, you just haven’t realised it yet.

Lurcherloves · 23/01/2021 19:26

I agree with OP and I don’t think men do feel the guilt. I think that it’s largely societal expectations. If men do anything parental they are praised for it eg if a man is working and kids in childcare for much of the time, the man is lauded for being such a good dad. If a woman did they same they would (certainly from some people) be criticised for working so much and not being with the kids.
The other issue is that women are in general more aware of the kids developmental and emotional needs especially in the earlier years. My DH wouldn’t think about just letting the kids play on their iPads all day, he wouldn’t think they should spend time on other things, get out for some exercise etc and he certainly wouldn’t feel guilt about that. So I end up lying awake at night upset because I can’t keep up with my stressful job and don’t feel like I’m being a good enough mum to my kids either as I would do better if I was home

SisyphusDad · 23/01/2021 19:31

I'm a lone father and I certainly feel what you call 'mum guilt'.

On a good day I'm just about a 'good enough' parent. I even have occasional flashes of brilliance. The rest of the time...

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 23/01/2021 19:36

It depends on the individual their demeanour their personality
Guilt,it’s a societal imposition
And mom guilt is not an indication of being a good parent, I’ve encountered performance parents who are conspicuously guilty,excitable and out there. To garner attention and isn’t she soooo caring plaudits

Sheleg · 23/01/2021 19:38

I can honestly say that I've never felt "mum guilt". I think it's something we're expected to feel.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 23/01/2021 19:41

Very much there’s an expectation that mums are an emotional overwrought mess @Sheleg

Lelophants · 23/01/2021 19:43

They do. Dh gets this all the time!

But yes generally women worry more, nature and nurture.

Abhannmor · 23/01/2021 19:46

@giantwaterbottle

I don't mean this to be a man bashing thread, I've just been thinking about the above.

DH is a good dad and he puts in as much time with the kids as me, he's done half of the majority of things although I do more hands on as he works and I am on maternity (or if not have worked part time).

Every night I go to bed and think of all the things I did wrong/wish I hadn't shouted/been cross etc/feel guilty for not doing more crafts etc etc.

I also constantly worry about their development and if I'm doing things wrong/doing enough.

I spoke to DH about this last night and he said he occasionally thinks like that but rarely.

I just don't understand!!! Also he gets frustrated with them more than I do, so I don't understand how he doesn't seem to second guess himself.

I've spoken to friends about this and their DH's seem to be the same.

So why don't men feel this?

I do. Still wonder if I screwed up some things even though they left home yonks ago. And I had empty nest syndrome as well as