To wonder why men don't seem to feel "mum guilt"?

[giantwaterbottle]

I don't mean this to be a man bashing thread, I've just been thinking about the above.

DH is a good dad and he puts in as much time with the kids as me, he's done half of the majority of things although I do more hands on as he works and I am on maternity (or if not have worked part time).

Every night I go to bed and think of all the things I did wrong/wish I hadn't shouted/been cross etc/feel guilty for not doing more crafts etc etc.

I also constantly worry about their development and if I'm doing things wrong/doing enough.

I spoke to DH about this last night and he said he occasionally thinks like that but rarely.

I just don't understand!!! Also he gets frustrated with them more than I do, so I don't understand how he doesn't seem to second guess himself.

I've spoken to friends about this and their DH's seem to be the same.

So why don't men feel this?

Do you think it's because you work part time/ are on maternity leave? If you work full time, you won't have the time, energy or headspace for feel bad about enriching opportunities

If a man has a family amd is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him
But nowadays women see that they can achieve a centrestage role in life, few men are willing to take the backstage role to support them and so women will increasingly shed the mum guilt and forgo families in order that they can achieve in life

@Thepilotlightsgoneout

I know what you mean. We were talking about school closures the other day and I said the biggest stress about it for me was the worry about their education, falling behind and lack of socialising with others their own age. DH, who is a good husband and dad, had literally not even thought about this, let alone worried about it.

When I first had them and was worrying about going back to work because it meant leaving them in nursery for long hours (like 10 hours a day at age 1), it had not occurred to him that this was anything we should be factoring in, or thinking about. No guilt or worry at the thought whatsoever, he was thinking about finances and logistics.

Also because men expect it to be already thought

@Yohoheaveho

If a man has a family amd is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him But nowadays women see that they can achieve a centrestage role in life, few men are willing to take the backstage role to support them and so women will increasingly shed the mum guilt and forgo families in order that they can achieve in life

As it should be - women should not have the mantle of "career woman until they become a mother then its their responsibility to cope" thrust upon them, nor should they adopt it either

women will increasingly shed the mum guilt and forgo families in order that they can achieve in life

Good. This is much of what feminism fought for. We don’t need more people on this Earth anyway. There are enough people being born in Africa and South America and China to keep the planet going and we’re just adding to the damage

@BubblyBarbara

women will increasingly shed the mum guilt and forgo families in order that they can achieve in life

Good. This is much of what feminism fought for. We don’t need more people on this Earth anyway. There are enough people being born in Africa and South America and China to keep the planet going and we’re just adding to the damage

Glad someone said it

I'm definitely like this @giantwaterbottle, regret not doing more interesting things with DS, getting cross etc and think a lot about whether what I'm doing is helping, or going to cause longer term problems or something. DH seems to accept things a bit more. But we're both like this about other things too - I'm definitely more of a worrier, analyser. Think it's both personality and social influences, and the former also makes some of us more susceptible to pressures from the latter.

Maybe try and give yourself credit for things you do with your DCs, remember when you did deal with a situation well etc (easier said than done). And try and avoid comparing yourself to others. I sometimes try and avoid doing things that I've previously felt bad about, but making it about improving myself as a mum rather than being more like someone else ifyswim.

Also imagine if we relied on men to come up with the idea of having children and to push it through. We’d have been extinct millennia ago. We are more nurturing and want kids more for a reason and we should either own that or decide not to have children as we are now able to do.

When Africa South America and china are fully modernised women there won't want to have children either

@Puddinger

Men just aren't big thinkers. I know we're not supposed to say that but they're really not. They have other good qualities though.

Like what?

If a man has a family and is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him
What an antiquated view

I am not in the background and no I don’t and won’t step back to facilitate my dp career. Why the hell would I Be the one who has to keep it together for him?

Unlike the mumsnet men who need a woman at home I have a partner who can
Chose his own clothes
Open and read correspondence
Shop
Maintain chores
cook food
And travel for work at short notice

They should be left to do it, let them do it, and women, accept the result. They are very capable when they have to be. Make yourself less available and don't feel bad about it

The biological difference of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding puts mum guilt on the radar before dad guilt. There is that initial physical biological connection of the mother's body and the baby. Women are more likely to wake to tend to the baby.

There is a huge amount of social conditioning on top. Women are more conditioned to want families, to sacrifice or compromise work to balance family life. Women's magazines proclaimed that you could have it all, but it turned into women doing it all without masculine culture adapting at the same rate.

Little things like schools phoning a mother by default. All the factors add up to women tending to remain default parent even in superficailly egalitarian relationships.

Not antiquated. Surveys consistently reveal that women and men in a household doing equivalent jobs, children or none, far more % of household jobs done by women

@BogRollBOGOF

The biological difference of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding puts mum guilt on the radar before dad guilt. There is that initial physical biological connection of the mother's body and the baby. Women are more likely to wake to tend to the baby.

There is a huge amount of social conditioning on top. Women are more conditioned to want families, to sacrifice or compromise work to balance family life. Women's magazines proclaimed that you could have it all, but it turned into women doing it all without masculine culture adapting at the same rate.

Little things like schools phoning a mother by default. All the factors add up to women tending to remain default parent even in superficailly egalitarian relationships.

Schools phone mum because the person phoning assumes more likely what they are phoning about will get done if they talk to the mum, and after a full and a half day of teaching/remote teaching-prep-marking, they will be less likely to take it personally - Dads tend to shout, push the blame back on the school with little outcome

@VinylDetective

Every night I go to bed and think of all the things I did wrong/wish I hadn't shouted/been cross etc/feel guilty for not doing more crafts etc etc. I also constantly worry about their development and if I'm doing things wrong/doing enough

I never did this. I suppose I should feel guilty because I didn’t. I’m not going to, though.

😆 I don’t think it would ever occur to me to worry about ‘craft’.

I dont think most men have grown up with any/many role models of men either being the primary carer or being involved in childcare in a significant way. And presumably they mainly grew up loving their fathers and wanting to be like them. Perhaps their Dads read great bedtime stories once a week, took them swimming on Sundays and played board games during annual leave and that was enough for a strong bond. Essentially men see modelled a mother doing more care or a women that is paid to do more care, so either way it not them doing the care so there is no guilt to feel as millenia of children seem to have been succesfully raised with this level of input from men.

Possibly its only been succesful because women have picked up the slack of caring and have worried more about physical care and development - which is why some mums find a conflict? But maybe women would like men to do more of the cuting toenails, picking up dirty pants, doing phonics practice side of parenting so they can do more of the fun bits, maybe both parents would rather pay someone else to do the less rewarding bits and both only do the fun things.
I'm quite lucky that i havent found much guilt but i do feel i miss out. So its a bit all about me and i wonder if some women say they feel guilty because it sounds more selfless than saying 'i like baby sing time and wanna do it'

She feels guilty for not putting herself first, e.g. if crafts are her hobby?

@MillieEpple

I dont think most men have grown up with any/many role models of men either being the primary carer or being involved in childcare in a significant way. And presumably they mainly grew up loving their fathers and wanting to be like them. Perhaps their Dads read great bedtime stories once a week, took them swimming on Sundays and played board games during annual leave and that was enough for a strong bond. Essentially men see modelled a mother doing more care or a women that is paid to do more care, so either way it not them doing the care so there is no guilt to feel as millenia of children seem to have been succesfully raised with this level of input from men.

Possibly its only been succesful because women have picked up the slack of caring and have worried more about physical care and development - which is why some mums find a conflict? But maybe women would like men to do more of the cuting toenails, picking up dirty pants, doing phonics practice side of parenting so they can do more of the fun bits, maybe both parents would rather pay someone else to do the less rewarding bits and both only do the fun things.
I'm quite lucky that i havent found much guilt but i do feel i miss out. So its a bit all about me and i wonder if some women say they feel guilty because it sounds more selfless than saying 'i like baby sing time and wanna do it'

Maybe that's it - if raising children is seen in terms of the investment in a child's mental development (singing) and providing for their and family needs (clean clothing - picking up the dirty ones; removal of trip hazards - tidying up; creating a relaxing, calm environment - home/house furnishings/aesthetics), which is, in effect, what you are doing, and this began to be the wording of this care on TV, amongst family, work, social groups, then perhaps its value would be recognised.

Disconnection of the task and the one doing the task, rather than it being "mum's job/the thing mum does".

The way I see it, my son can have a mum who is constantly stressed and upset and blaming herself for not being good enough, or he can have a mum who is actually happy and knows she doesn't have to be perfect. Even if the second one doesn't craft and make every meal from scratch, I think he'd rather have the latter.

I refuse to beat myself up because he doesn't have a perfect Montessori classroom-esque bedroom or because I was on my phone for five minutes while he played. He is healthy, clean and happy. I play with him, feed him, cuddle him, comfort him. That is really all children need.

There is, of course, way more pressure on women than on men to be a good parent and I don't know why are so invested in denying that. But I don't feel a need to buy into it.

"If a man has a family and is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him
What an antiquated view

I am not in the background and no I don’t and won’t step back to facilitate my dp career. Why the hell would I Be the one who has to keep it together for him?"

She's not saying that's how it SHOULD be, she's saying that is how it very often IS.

@FunkBus

The way I see it, my son can have a mum who is constantly stressed and upset and blaming herself for not being good enough, or he can have a mum who is actually happy and knows she doesn't have to be perfect. Even if the second one doesn't craft and make every meal from scratch, I think he'd rather have the latter.

I refuse to beat myself up because he doesn't have a perfect Montessori classroom-esque bedroom or because I was on my phone for five minutes while he played. He is healthy, clean and happy. I play with him, feed him, cuddle him, comfort him. That is really all children need.

There is, of course, way more pressure on women than on men to be a good parent and I don't know why are so invested in denying that. But I don't feel a need to buy into it.

More women, more mums need to be like you

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

If a man has a family and is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him What an antiquated view

I am not in the background and no I don’t and won’t step back to facilitate my dp career. Why the hell would I Be the one who has to keep it together for him?

Unlike the mumsnet men who need a woman at home I have a partner who can
Chose his own clothes
Open and read correspondence
Shop
Maintain chores
cook food
And travel for work at short notice

Who looks after the kids when he travels at short notice?

@FunkBus

"If a man has a family and is highly achieving, you can bet your life there is a woman in the back ground keeping it together for him What an antiquated view

I am not in the background and no I don’t and won’t step back to facilitate my dp career. Why the hell would I Be the one who has to keep it together for him?"

She's not saying that's how it SHOULD be, she's saying that is how it very often IS.

Yes, thank you, it's what I meant. The gaps are more often than not by a female, usually wife/mother.

Thank you for being eloquenter than wot I is!

Me if I’m available or he adjusts the travel plans to accommodate me