To have zero sympathy for the fishing industry?

[AgeLikeWine]

The U.K. fishing industry voted overwhelmingly for Brexit ; 92% voted Leave according to a poll from June 2016 (source : The Guardian).

Now they are bleating about the massive logistical and administrative problems and delays that they are encountering in trying to export their catch into EU markets. Today, fish transportation companies have been driving their lorries around central London to protest about the situation.

But this is what they voted for : to ‘take back control of our waters’. They voted Leave in the full knowledge that most of the U.K. catch was exported to Europe, and that that would obviously be more difficult after Brexit, so they should suck it up & stop whinging.

@derxa

*According to that website we were 6th highest according to cost of living in 2016

That's a pointless website anyway.

Because even though things may be expensive / cheap compared to another city or country, it doesn't take into account purchasing power. How does it compare to say average earnings - or even average take home pay, as some countries have more taxes etc.

So Switzerland may seem expensive but people get higher salaries there.

It's expensive though if you go there on a typical UK salary.

That's a pointless website anyway. Maybe but to say that your own shopping bill has gone up 30% is also meaningless. You might be buying Champagne and caviar now but you used to buy cans of Special Brew and frozen pizza in 2016.

Scottishskifun

Surely it makes more sense to have some sympathy, support the communities and get the government to ensure that fishermen and farmers are not loosing thousands and doing compensation schemes like they said it would and then a long term sustainability rather then something taking decades to then show any sign of recovery.......

well, quite. That makes sense if people didn't come from, say, Newport which was totally shafted first with shipping and then with the steel industry. Or Sheffield which lost all its heavy industry suddenly. Or Teeside etc etc Where was the handwring? the preparedness to pay more tax to subsidise the people there? (as i mentioned before, some of the miners never worked again - 50 year olds lost in a job market that had no room for them.

And yes, those industries all needed streamlining and bringing up to date. But there was... nothing.

So you might want to forgive some people saying "well, on balance, I'm sorry and all but you voted us out of the one organisation that could have helped you".

Quite frankly i can see the day come when the few fishing companies that are left just take the short-term quick buck and sell out to the highest French, Dutch or Spanish bidder. I don't know what the answer is, but i flipping well hope it isn't that.

Surely it makes more sense to have some sympathy, support the communities and get the government to ensure that fishermen and farmers are not loosing thousands and doing compensation schemes
I did my best already for fishing communities and farmers by voting remain and campaigning/marching to stop Brexit or a soft SC+CU Brexit. I got called a remoaner, a snow flake, I got laughed at and told I lost, get over it, I got aggressively shouted at in the street by racist Leave voters. Until leave voters apologise for the damage they've done and try to fix it, they can fuck right off. I did my best for them already, how about they try and do their best for the country for a change?

Oh and I hope Leave voters children never forgive them.

That's a pointless website anyway.
Because even though things may be expensive / cheap compared to another city or country, it doesn't take into account purchasing power. How does it compare to say average earnings - or even average take home pay, as some countries have more taxes etc.

except that it absolutely does take purchasing power into consideration - except that the measure is against New York City so I'm not entirely sure it's completely helpful. Although, of course, a comparison is a comparison if you are measuring the same thing against the same thing.

For eg, UK local purchasing power is around 108 and Switzerland 126 compared to NYC. (that was 2018)

In 2016 in the groceries index UK was 7th, in 2020 15th. It's a really interesting tool so thanks to derxa for posting it.

@Lemonyfuckit

Oh and to add to that, because of all the ridiculous fuss about the fishing industry Farage and co made and made it such a ridiculously emotive subject in the context of Brexit it was all given far more weight than it merited. So industries which contribute far far more to the economy have also been shafted in the name of taking back control of our waters etc etc when fishing is a tiny proportion of GDP. So so them (except of course any fisherman who voted remain). Same for agricultural communities which voted leave and were heavily reliant on EU subsidies.

The fishing industry was leveraged for its symbolic potency by Farage.

Who has now fucked off with his big fat pension and German passport.

The fishermen have served their purpose, and it wasn't to catch fish.

2016 : vote for their own destruction

2017 : vote for their own destruction

2019 : vote for their own destruction

2021 : seem surprised that it happened

People who want discussions hidden normally don't want many people to be aware of the issues. Anyway there doesn't need to be a Brexit section as Brexit is over. This is just everyday life now

It was interesting how many Leavers wanted discussions hidden at the time. And it was everywhere, not just here. They didn't want discussions to happen because their arguments were paper thin.

And if Remain arguments got through it was "Project Fear" and "Remoaners" instead of actually addressing the questions posed.

There is a terrifying dearth of critical thinking going on. On both sides actually because Remainers were ignoring the actual reasons people voted Leave and had they been more curious and less critical, there might have been a meeting of the minds somewhere.

If someone is worried about immigration for example, it might just be that they are worried about jobs, housing, healthcare and schools rather than a racist. But the racists speak to them and the liberals shout RACIST XENOPHOBE. Hardly the start of a constructive debate.

If someone is worried about immigration for example, it might just be that they are worried about jobs, housing, healthcare and schools rather than a racist.

This 1000%. However, it's not uncommon (to the extent that I can't recall the exceptions) for such discussions to slowly and inexorably edge towards someone (not me) saying "They"/"Them"/"Their" in a sentence in a manner that suggests they just don't want anyone foreign round here

But the racists speak to them and the liberals shout RACIST XENOPHOBE. Hardly the start of a constructive debate.

I have fuck all time for David Cameron. However when he visited my DS school in 2009 to host a "Cameron direct" (it was never shown) and he wanted to have just that debate to be able to big up the EU, he had to ask people to moderate their language as he was finding it offensive. i don't think there was any interest in debate. Just a rather nasty chance to bash Polish and "their kind" to a Tory.

The only question about the NHS he was able to take came from a South African radiologist who asked why she bothered to come to a country that hates foreigners so much. Mr. Cameron tried to say that it wasn't everyone in the UK, and her answer was "seems like it to me."

There is a terrifying dearth of critical thinking going on. On both sides actually because Remainers were ignoring the actual reasons people voted Leave and had they been more curious and less critical, there might have been a meeting of the minds somewhere

That's so true of many discussions about issues at the moment - and I don't think social media helps as characters are limited and it's easy for people just to get 'soundbites' rather than engage in a meeting of minds, reflective listening etc.

I do wonder know what Leave voters think, and how they truly feel about what's happened.

I wonder how many would admit that it's not going as well as they thought, or they didn't realise about some of the issues that have come to light - it's really hard to admit that maybe you hadn't considered things properly, or to say that you might have made a mistake.

I don't know how Labour play this. It's going to be an 'interesting' 3 or 4 years before the next election and you wonder how much a renegotiation of a trade deal might feature...

Who knows?

There is a terrifying dearth of critical thinking going on. On both sides actually because Remainers were ignoring the actual reasons people voted Leave and had they been more curious and less critical, there might have been a meeting of the minds somewhere

I have debated Brexit for 4 years plus here and elsewhere. Not once. Not once. Not once. Has a single person who claims to have voted leave ever been able to say what they were voting for. Plenty of (rather unpleasant at times) lengthy diatribes about what they were voting against. But whenever they were asked what they wanted, it became:

Take back control
OK, so what can't we control ?
(sometimes there would be a fig leaf ...)
Our own laws
OK, which ones ?
Well ...
But that's not the EU. That was the UKs decision
Well ...
But that's not the EU. That was the UKs decision
Well ...
But that's not the EU. That was the UKs decision
Well ...
But that's not the EU. That was the UKs decision

until ...

Well, there's all these immigrants ...
and that was it.

And if anyone wants to prove me wrong, they are welcome to find the exchange - on MN or anywhere - which went differently.

I have debated Brexit for 4 years plus here and elsewhere. Not once. Not once. Not once. Has a single person who claims to have voted leave ever been able to say what they were voting for. Plenty of (rather unpleasant at times) lengthy diatribes about what they were voting against. But whenever they were asked what they wanted, it became

The 'Take Back Control' argument was a very powerful message.

And there was a LOT of misinformation about laws, directives etc.

I think the 'Take back control' over our borders, along with the endless messages in the media at the time did appeal to many people.

What wasn't mentioned was how other EU countries have controls over Freedom of movement and what that meant in practice in their countries.

But in general, people (on any side of a debate) like relatively straightforward messages without complexities.

Which is why 'Take back control' worked and the complex arguments about what the EU benefits were couldn't be countered with a 3 word slogan.

What wasn't mentioned was how other EU countries have controls over Freedom of movement and what that meant in practice in their countries.

You know something ?

Now we are here. On the Brexit train with the station receding into the distance like a ships smoke on the horizon. Now we are here, I don't think that would have materially affected the vote. The reason the mis/disinformation campaign worked was because a lot of people wanted to believe it. It gave them a perfect cover to justify their views without having to question them.

There is no question that successive governments have fucked up immigration to the UK and in doing so fucked over the people that grew up here. However by being willing to absorb a false narrative that was tailored to their understandable fears, people have not only been fucked over even more (just wait till the price of trade with India is paid), but fucked over their neighbours too.

Mistakes have been made on all sides. But now 100% of the people are paying for the mistakes of 1%. With the added glass in the shoe that the 1% will actually be doing better now than ever before.

Yeah, result.

My area is 98 8% white.
Morning about immigrants always seemed a rather hollie argument to me.
When the new vicar arrived a ladt in the congregation told him happily "there aren't any brown people here"
I promise I don't live in Royston vasey!
just feels like it sometimes

moaning even

derxa
All depends on your purchasing ability I guess 🤔

No pay rises here in the last decade....

Loads of them local to me and they were told again and again years ago. I wont even listen to their bleating now. They're on their own, and the same will go for farmers.

Sorry Rosetti, im completely done with the 'we voted for stupid shit because you called us stupid' nonsense. Thought these sorts were all about personal responsibility?

oh sorry i didnt mean rosetti, not trailing back through the thread now to see who it was a reply to.

@user1471565182

oh sorry i didnt mean rosetti, not trailing back through the thread now to see who it was a reply to.

.

The Brexit vote was in 2016

the KEY VOTE that closed us off to the Single Market was in 2019

but people voted to walk over the cliff

more fool them

What wasn't mentioned was how other EU countries have controls over Freedom of movement and what that meant in practice in their countries.

Tosh. Loads of us, thousands on twitter, fb, here and all over the place were explaining exactly how it works in Germany, France, Spain, Poland .... any EU country you'd care to mention. If you're here for 3 months with no visible means of support, of you go back to where you came from. The UK is one of very few (if the only?) country that decided not to make use of that.
They also didn't, unlike Germany, make use of the rule that would have allowed them, for eg, not to accept people from Romani and Bulgaria under FoM for two years after they joined the EU. Many other countries did and what happened? they went to UK in droves because it was one of the few options open to them.

And so on and so on. I was called all sorts of vile names (not on here) especially when i said i was taking German citizenship.

I can well imagine some of the reasons those employed in the fishing industry might have thought Brexit was a good idea. But they should have balanced that with the knowledge that their major market is EU.