When do we teach daughters to fight back?

[Jimbellselmbath]

Dd has been in trouble in school for "fighting"
She is 12 and a little skinny thing.
The other side was a boy, a school year older, taller and bigger, she said he has already turned 14. So nearer 2 years older.
He has history for attacking girls back to primary but his parents are very vocal and protective and their boy is an angel.
DD got the better of him in the "fight"
Dd said he started it and she finished it like we had always told her to do.
None of the above was disputed by either side.
DD was placed in isolation for a week although lockdown happened so she did 2 days. The boy got nothing although he was in school.
What has really riled me is the teacher was so bothered about her retaliating, that was the source of her punishment.
Having had time to think about it I am not happy.
So dd shouldn't retaliate? Should she do so when she's older?
If an older boy kicks her in the fanny on the bus, should she wait until the next day to report at school? What if he's not from the school? What about an adult? Should she sit quietly and take his abuse? At what age can a girl fight back? I want to go to his house but dd would die of shame
I have no faith in the school

I think OP commented about being a key worker. Though there was also a post saying her daughter only had 2 days of isolation because of lockdown. Who knows. I teach my kids if theyre attacked by an adult they a can do anything they need to get away, kick, hit, bite and they should scream and run away as soon as they can. Fights with kids push them away, hit back if needed but then same applies scream and run away. I did a self defence course with a former police officer and he said the best thing you can do is make lots of noise, scream. Though he said to scream fire not help. People go to look at a fire they're much less likely to come if you shout help, especially at night. So punch, kick, claw, bite and scream then run as soon as you can. I would be proud of my daughter if she did the 1st 3 things on OPs list then ran and screamed. The rest would make me realise I'd need to have a better talk to my DD about self defence. Once she's an adult if she did similar she could be up on assault charges.

I can't believe this thread is still here, its total bullshit.

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face.

I'd be gutted if my DD behaved like this.

I would totally back the school with the punishment they handed out. I would also trust them to discuss it with me so the person that started it could be punished too.

In the world I live in, normal people don't fight with other people when there are other options. I say this as a 'strong' woman who doesn't take any shit and used to run pubs and deal with fights if needed.

But then as kids aren't at school, this is probably bullshit anyway.

It’s obvious bullshit. The op originally mentioned dd getting kicked on a bus then it changed to in the school. The Op hasn’t come back, another give away.

Tricky one. What does she mean by he "started it"? Did he physically touch her first? If so, a physical assault has taken place. The school has a duty of care and if they are going to let his physical assault on her go without consequences, i'd be reporting it to the police. She is entitled to use reasonable force.

That said if he called her a name and she lamped him, while i'd argue that she's perfectly justified, she's prob not going to get away with it!

Are there seriously idiots out there telling their daughters to try and attack/keep fighting attackers? It boggles the brain quite how stupid and dangerous this is.

Err fairly basic self defence, no? Make yourself a bloody difficult target??

They do teach this in MMA, it's called 'ground and pound' and its been the biggest sport over the pandemic. Just to correct pp who claimed what she did wasn't taught in any martial arts. Not saying it was right but there's a definite trend towards more young girls coming to train and it's not completely unreasonable that some girls may use that in self defence I suppose.

Tell your daughters to defend themselves and use any force to get clear then to turn and run like fuck.

While running isn't a bad strategy, women are no more likely to be able to out run a a man than they are of beating him on strength. If you can do enough damage to him to make it hard for him to get up and chase after you, you stand a much better chance of getting away.

In general, as with almost all crime, the best strategy is to make the attacker think it's going to be too difficult or costly to bother again. This can involve running off (though in a school situation, that's unlikely to be much of a deterrent to "next time"), reporting if the school's anti=bullying policy is effective, getting others to defend you or fighting back hard enough to hurt. None of them are sure fire routes to success, though.

@supernanmam "The op originally mentioned dd getting kicked on a bus"

The bus was a "what if" situation, I presume, as if what should the daughter do if there is no responsible adult around, or it didn't occur in a presumably safe environment, like school.

How did your DD win the fight? Was the boy seriously hurt? I’m confused as to why the boy wasn’t punished when there’s proof he hurt your DD. You need to report this to the Head teacher and explain that if the school does not investigate this older boy who is known for beating up little girls and bruising their genitals and pelvic area, then you will take this to the police. This is a horrific assault. I would have contacted the police by now and taken photos.

I was told from a young age that if someone hits you you should always hit back. I onky remember it happening one when a girl in my primsry school class hit me once and I hit her back once. Both parents got spoken to but there wasn't any further action taken. My parents told me I had done the right thing and to do it again if needed.

Your daughter had a bit more of a serios fight but I say good on her for standing up for herself. I'm sure a lot of people will think twice before bulliying her now. Definitely escalate with the school and find iut why the instagator wasn't punished. IMO telling her she isn't supposed to fight back and punishing her for it creates the kind of culture where women accept violence from their partners.

@Jimbellselmbath

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face. Thank you for picking up on the fact that while the children were shivering on the games court for 2.5 hours due to the fire alarm, staff were going about their business inside the building nice and warm, I will mention that in my complaint as the email specifically states that she re entered the building and found a member of staff, I hadn't picked up on that. Good point. Thanks

Just read your updates. If someone kicked me so hard in my pelvic area that I bruised, then I wouldn’t be able to move due to pain and shock. I could understand hitting out, but I don’t understand why she did that long list of attacks, including jumping on his chest and repeatedly hitting him in the face. No wonder she’s in isolation.

Regarding the fire alarm, are you sure your DD isn’t exaggerating with the 2.5 hours wait? That’s unusual. Also, staff don’t stay inside “nice and warm” to relax, they have to search to make sure there aren’t any students still inside and check if there actually is a fire. They probably tried to figure out how someone triggered the alarm.

@PinkPandaBear

How did your DD win the fight? Was the boy seriously hurt? I’m confused as to why the boy wasn’t punished when there’s proof he hurt your DD. You need to report this to the Head teacher and explain that if the school does not investigate this older boy who is known for beating up little girls and bruising their genitals and pelvic area, then you will take this to the police. This is a horrific assault. I would have contacted the police by now and taken photos.

Where has the OP said the boy is known for bruising girls' genitals? (Plural)

She doesn't.

Though obviously, I imagine it's a non starter that if a female student had been kicked in the genitals so hard there was bruising, and the school didn't act, the family would take the matter further.

Likewise, the boy who, from the OP's words was repeatedly beaten and punched in the face by her daughter's parents would also probably take the matter further.

I've another question....the girl eventually went inside, found the dinner lady, was kept in at break (though they'd been outside fucking around on their own since 12.30) I wonder, was the other child left bruised and (from the OP's detailed account of his injuries from her daughter) left bleeding and injured on the yard?

Because obviously that would be (another) serious dereliction of duty by the school whatever the rights and wrongs of the fight. The male student had been (OP's words) thrown to the floor and attacked in such a way that any school would have him sent to hospital to cover their own arses if nothing else. He could have had a serious head injury.

It's all very strange. What a terrible school. Etc.

Having been in a situation not a million miles away from your daughter's, some of this thread has made me very, very angry.

Your daughter did the right thing in going as far as she needed, not just to make the boy stop on that occasion, but to make sure she isn't seen as an easy target again. She is not obliged to react passively in the vague hope authority might arrive, nor as though it will help her if it does. She is certainly not obliged to maintain any sort of moral high ground whilst responding to an unprovoked attack.

My dd started "fighting back" in reception.
The Male y6 chunky lad didnt know what threw him across the room...
She has a couple of Lads in her class (ks2 now) when school is open, who think it is funny to wind her up. Until she has enough and decks them.
She follows school rules of
Walk away
Tell them to stop
Tell an adult
When these steps fail, she tries something else.
Conversation with school is getting a little predictable now
Your dd hit another kid today
Oh, what had they done to dd?
They said they hadn't done anything...
Really? That's a first.
Texts come to me later, from several parents asking if dd is ok. As other kids saw dd being hurt/bullied by the 2 class muppets.

@1stmonkey

Are there seriously idiots out there telling their daughters to try and attack/keep fighting attackers? It boggles the brain quite how stupid and dangerous this is.

Err fairly basic self defence, no? Make yourself a bloody difficult target??

Not in court.

@PinkPandaBear
Only key staff remain ie the Janny. All other staff would be outside (including the dinner ladies).

[quote Wheresmykimchi]@PinkPandaBear
Only key staff remain ie the Janny. All other staff would be outside (including the dinner ladies).[/quote]
It was lucky that the last dinner lady standing was a family friend though. Phew!

After such a debacle I'm surprised the Echo didn't pick it up. Because so many kids in a pandemic, unsupervised. Lots of parents must have contacted the governors. Quite rightly.

You need to go to the police!!

She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face.

This goes well beyond self-defence and is presumably the reason she is in trouble.

I would not report the assault on your daughter to the police in these circumstances, as I'd be worried that she is more likely to be the one who ends up getting charged based on the above description.

Did the OP say where she is from, originally? The references to her own daughter been kicked in the 'fanny' did ping on my radar.

She said she wasn't English. I presumed American as fanny historically means bum, but then of course she clarified to say she meant between her legs.

@LadyDique

surely a girl has a better chance of stopping a man overpowering her if she goes nuts when attacked

I'm actually open mouthed. Is that a serious comment?

No. A girl doesn't have a better chance if she 'goes nuts' when attacked. Very, very few girls (or adult women for that matter) will be able to overpower a male attacker even if they 'go nuts' because their male counterpart is likely to be bigger, stronger and faster than her.

Going nuts and trying to make an attack is likely to get her beaten or killed.

Tell your daughters to defend themselves and use any force to get clear then to turn and run like fuck.

Are there seriously idiots out there telling their daughters to try and attack/keep fighting attackers? It boggles the brain quite how stupid and dangerous this is.

Im saying this after talking to various people about an incident that happened with my actual dd at school about whether she fought back too hard. Its not just an internet debate, its about how much trouble should a little girl get in if she accidentally goes too far when attacked and fighting back. A lot of you guys on here are acting like she was responsible for not being trained in keeping their cool. End of the day if a girl is attacked then she needs to disarm or disable the attacker. The kid is 12 ffs. Not her fault. Dont start fights with others if you dont want to be hurt, because some people will fight back harder than you might expect. Its a good lesson for that boy hopefully

Are there seriously idiots out there telling their daughters to try and attack/keep fighting attackers? It boggles the brain quite how stupid and dangerous this is.

Err fairly basic self defence, no? Make yourself a bloody difficult target??

Not in court.

I would be worried about court AFTER dealing with the more pressing issue of receiving a beating. Or worse.

im more concerned with the idiots who tell their daughters that if a male attacks them, try not to go OTT or get into a panic in case they hurt them, and if they do, then they - their own parents would support the school in punishing them.
incredible