When do we teach daughters to fight back?

[Jimbellselmbath]

Dd has been in trouble in school for "fighting"
She is 12 and a little skinny thing.
The other side was a boy, a school year older, taller and bigger, she said he has already turned 14. So nearer 2 years older.
He has history for attacking girls back to primary but his parents are very vocal and protective and their boy is an angel.
DD got the better of him in the "fight"
Dd said he started it and she finished it like we had always told her to do.
None of the above was disputed by either side.
DD was placed in isolation for a week although lockdown happened so she did 2 days. The boy got nothing although he was in school.
What has really riled me is the teacher was so bothered about her retaliating, that was the source of her punishment.
Having had time to think about it I am not happy.
So dd shouldn't retaliate? Should she do so when she's older?
If an older boy kicks her in the fanny on the bus, should she wait until the next day to report at school? What if he's not from the school? What about an adult? Should she sit quietly and take his abuse? At what age can a girl fight back? I want to go to his house but dd would die of shame
I have no faith in the school

All those who are saying that the retaliatory often gets punished I would agree with as this is the experience my kids have had- if they are violently assaulted but hit back harder they have always been blamed. It is their fault that they happen to be tall and strong and as a result someone punching them in the head for no reason counts for nothing.

On a personal level the last time I was attacked was at work in the middle of the day. The perp could not possibly have thought that I wanted him to lock me in and then attempt to kiss me. I was over 40, at work and wearing a wedding ring! I’ve also been attacked carrying my shopping home (from behind), by an elderly but very strong man while walking along a path in the middle of the day and numerous other times. Because I dared to be pretty. Of course, nobody was ever caught or prosecuted for these or any other of the numerous assaults I’ve put up with. It’s the culture of normalising assaults and bullying and minimising the effects that enables it to continue. Hopefully your dd’s friends are sticking with her through this.

Laughing (in a morbid way) at the aghast of the potential he kicks she kicks scenario's. If a woman fights back she's at fault for escalating it or endangering herself. Ill tell you what happens if she doesnt kick back. It goes he kicks, he kicks, he kicks, she's severely injured or dead. Teach your daughters to kick back.

....She punched him in the chest, kicked him in the balls, punched him in the face, knocking him down

Fair enough self defence
Then she should have quit and left
Having done self defence classes that is what you are taught... disable the attacker then quit and run

.....then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in his face.

Was that needed?

But snyway
She was attacked first

I live in the Yorkshire Dales; one of the nicer parts of the uk and have myself been attacked by men on a few occasions.... this isn’t a movie it is reality of living in the 21st century. Lucky I am a 2nd Dan black belt and have to date come away unscathed; I can’t say the same for the men that iv had dealings with! Yes i am trained to defend myself; but as the weaker sex I am going to be sure the punk isn’t going to get up again for a while & perhaps thinks twice about aggression in the future. Further to this and to confirm; it’s absolutely garbage that you can’t continue to practice even if you are charged with GBH you could and people do. Yes; we are not in the movies; life isn’t Disney!
As for the 14 year old boy noted above or for anyone who initiates violence should get what they deserve; well done to the young girl - but more to the point; he clearly hasn’t been raised well; I’d be disgusted if my child behaved this way.

Ill tell you what happens if she doesnt kick back. It goes he kicks, he kicks, he kicks, she's severely injured or dead. Teach your daughters to kick back.

As a domestic abuse survivor, I can tell you this is a very dangerous strategy. You are as likely to end up dead. Do what you need to get out, ideally verbally, escalating the situation is rarely a sensible strategy.

Call the police OP. A 14 year old boy is going to be an 18 year old man in four years, and he likes kicking girls in the genitals, so hard it leaves imprints? God help his future partners. Even if the police can do nothing this time, you will hopefully be helping his future victims, especially if his parents don't take this seriously.

Calling the police should also make the school take this more seriously as well.

This is hard. Yes we teach children fighting us wrong. But actually during adolescence at some point there has to be messaging that physically resisting abusive behaviour in self defence is absolutely ok.

Otherwise you are going to have girls thinking they mustn't fight back getting raped.

My daughter beat up a boy at school that started pushing her around and trying to fight her. Thankfully she had said twice, out loud with witnesses that she didnt want to fight him. She still got a load of behaviour points for it, but nothing worse.
Hopefully your daughter wont be targetted again now.

This is hard. Yes we teach children fighting us wrong. But actually during adolescence at some point there has to be messaging that physically resisting abusive behaviour in self defence is absolutely ok
Yes there is a middle ground. OP's DD gave him a thrashing he may have had it coming but her reaction once he was down was scary.
What happened starting first kick?

Another issue when DD has a reputation of a tough alpha others line up to either challenge or become friends of hers.
It happens with both genders trouble breeds trouble.

I can’t believe you haven’t been to the police. It’s a serious physical and sexual assault.

Jimbellselmbath

Dd has a photograph! Knickers on so nothing on show but it is literally his heel right on her groin so you know where the rest of his foot hit.

Actually, no I don't know where the rest of his foot hit; I can't visualise it.

He left the imprint of his heel is in her groin while he was kicking her between the legs?

I don't see how that's physically possible.

Perhaps we have different ideas about what constitutes the "groin".

LaMarschallin I said the same but didn't get an answer.

The problem is the kid will often report back being the victim. In many cases, who is the victim and who is the perpetrator is not as black and white as they make it, and the reason why punishment can appear unfair.

Did the kid strike with no provocation at all or maybe he was the one being persecuted by OP's daughter, teased and bullied and he was retaliating in the first place.

These situations are so often grey and parents don't always get the right picture reported by the schools nor their own kids.

@haggistramp

Laughing (in a morbid way) at the aghast of the potential he kicks she kicks scenario's. If a woman fights back she's at fault for escalating it or endangering herself. Ill tell you what happens if she doesnt kick back. It goes he kicks, he kicks, he kicks, she's severely injured or dead. Teach your daughters to kick back.

No.

My dad who is a policeman taught me to make as much noise, distract , or disable in some way (ie one kick,) throw your belongings if that's what he is after and run like fuck.

Fighting back, wrestlings etc, often results in panic murders.

Il take that advice over OP- who, incidentally, will b thrilled at he response to her nonsensical post which I'm surprised is still up.

I'd be very interested in hearing what went on in the 3 mins before the violence broke out.
I don't know around your way but if a teenager lad kicked a girl in her crotch he'd be looked down on by other lads.

@Aria999

The boy got nothing? Wtf?

Escalate.

I think she was right to defend herself.

100% Agree.

Your DD did the right think IMO, she should not be punished for defending herself...what the actual fuck?! I’m fuming for you.

My dad who is a policeman taught me to make as much noise, distract , or disable in some way (ie one kick,) throw your belongings if that's what he is after and run like fuck.

Fighting back, wrestlings etc, often results in panic murders.

Yes this totally

Ex teacher here.

They should both receive the same punishment.

She needs to learn that if she finishes a fight, there are consequences to that.

He needs to learn that if he starts a fight, there are consequences to that too.

I'm very surprised the school did not punish him and I would be kicking up a fuss about that. What lesson does that teach the boy? That he can get away with it scot free... Nice criminal in the making there!

Iminaglasscaseofemotion

LaMarschallin I said the same but didn't get an answer.

I suppose I won't either.

Really (and I may have given this too much thought; I, like everybody else, blame the boredom of lockdown), to get an imprint of a heel in someone's groin, the perpetrator* would have to kick backwards, like a donkey, and then have Darcy-Bussell-like extension of the ankle to get his foot between DD's legs.

And such a bad, black bruise leaving an actual imprint would be very hard to produce by kicking, given both people were standing.
That's much more associated with the assailant being standing and the victim lying down. It takes a really hard kick (possibly with a run up) or a stamp to produce that.

*Or "punk" as used by a PP.
I feel all tough just typing that

Anyone else wondering why if this happened during a fire drill, where I presume the entire school were then outside, how this didn't also draw the attention of all of the pupils who I am sure would've loved the opportunity to form a large circle and watch a 12 yr old "skinny little thing" deck a 14yr old?

Come on now.

My children’s school just expels people who are violent and consequently, very few people are.

I am really shocked at some of the answers on this theread. Eg women should never fight back in case they are murdered? Seriously? A panic murder in the school yard???

I left a violent man the first time they hurt someone. It wasn’t easy but I did it.

I am aghast that people are suggesting females should appease men and put up with assaults. Bullies who get away with bullying continue to bully.

This is the same rape apologist, male appeasing rubbish that our parents put up with.

Men. Stop attacking women, raping women or you will face huge consequences from society both legally and socially. There we go. Job done. Spread that message and stick to it. There are many countries where there isn’t this level of violence directed towards females. Because instead of saying - oh dear 80% of eapes aren’t reported and of the 20% that are only 5% result in a conviction what a shame” they actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I know that there have been strides forward particularly wrt domestic abuse reporting but we need to broadcast the message above more often and back it up with action. It’s not rocket science

I have taught my daughter to call it a fanny. It's normal.
Oh ok, I’ve never heard a little girl use that term before, just seems a bit crude to me, and a bit odd?

Notyourcat

I think that's quite a selective reading. I dont think anyone would disagree with you when you said
Stop attacking women, raping women or you will face huge consequences from society both legally and socially.

But honestly "fighting back" and standing up for yourself can take so many forms. It can be anything including walking out on a fight before it starts.

Escalating a fight is not always noble or sensible

.....then while he was on the floor, she jumped on top of him and punched him repeatedly in the face
Sorry but I find this part hard to believe. A 12 year old girl?