What pronoun would you use?

[Learningtobehappier]

Heres the back story.

I was with my EXH for 5 years, left because of DV over 5 years ago with our child, theres zero contact, doesn't know where we live, we've been in refuge previously.

EXH is currently being investigated for Child Sex offences and i should find out soon if he will be charged (theres pretty good evidence).

I am a witness, have provided a statement and would go to court.

EXH now identifies as a female.

I'll obviously ask if the time comes, but in court which pronoun would you use? At the time when everything happened they were male, so it would come naturally to say "he then did this" but I wouldn't want to look bad for using him/he. But at the same time, it would feel really wrong for me to say "then she did this" when at the time they were male.

I thought about using they/their but then I need to be specific that there was only EXH there and that no one else was there, or that there was someone else there but only EXH did something etc.

So what would you use? What would I be expected to use?

absolutely not a transgender bashing thread

If guilty which prison would the person go to , a male or female one? Would think you should use the pronoun that the court accepts

Take advice from your own legal team or witness care, OP. If you want an answer sooner to settle your mind then you can call the witness service through Citizens Advice.

You can't refer to him as "they" because that's also the incorrect pronoun: he's not non-binary.

I would raise the issue with your lawyer in the context that you're going to have to swear to tell the truth and the truth is that he now identifies as female but he didn't then. You don't want to later be accused of perjury. BUT you've also been made aware of the Maria McLauchlan case in which the judge changed the penalty based on the victim not lying in court - in case the lawyer isn't aware of that case (hopefully lawyer is!).

Sorry you're having to go through any of this.

I think, well-meaning as it undoubtedly is, you should ignore most of the advice here, and ask the prosecution counsel (I'm assuming you're a witness for the prosecution) what you should do.

The Maria McLauchlan isn't quite the same though as the defendant was already identifying as a woman at the time the offence was committed. In this case however, the defendant was not.

Judges might have been issued with a 'woke' rulebook but juries are chosen at random and therefore form a balanced cross-section of society. So the odds of more than one of the twelve of them subscribing to this batshittery is fairly slim. They'll just see a dirty pervert in the dock.

I would use he or they if anyone objected. I would not use she/her as that would be a lie.

Ask the prosecution, they will have established this before your witness evidence so follow their lead.

As for whoever said ‘no way would I be calling a sex offender ‘she’ - well you would if said offender was a woman!

@Balhammom

I say this as a lawyer.

If you dead-name her or refer to “he”/“him”, the court is most likely to view you as vindictive and biased. They would, in those circumstances, be much less likely to make your evidence seriously.

Absolutely shocking. Why is the law protecting the abuser rather than the victim?

What about her feelings?

How will it affect his young victims if he walks free? Are you really happy to risk this to prove a point about pronouns?

This is a shifty thing to say. The OP doesn’t need any guilt heaped upon her. She was barely more than a child when her ex husband started abusing her. The distress and trauma caused to the victims is only the fault of the abuser.

In the first response you give, I would preface your statements by explaining that you understand your ex now identifies as female but that you will use he/old name because that is how he identified throughout the course of your relationship.

But as others have said, I would raise this with the prosecution/victim's advocate/whatever resource is available to you. I would emphasise that you are afraid that you will stumble over your testimony if you have to recount events using a different gender and name than you did at the time the events took place.

Use the name he went by then and 'my husband.' Use 'he' if you want to and clarify by saying 'at the time the accused was a man, I knew them only as a man so my descriptions are of the person I knew at the time the events took place,. That person was a man, my husband.

You shouldn't have to be distracted by this and nor should the jury. Focus should be on his crimes. Mad world.

I'm so sorry about this hideous situation.

I do think you can use the uncertainty about his identity to your advantage. Referring to someone as 'my ex-husband' or 'the accused' throughout is inevitably going to dehumanise someone a little bit; it's why we give own own pets stable fixed names but other animals are just 'horsey' or kitty' or whatever. Most people involved in this trial are unlikely to have sophisticated or much pondered views on transgender issues: they occupy a huge amount of brain time for a small number of people (on both sides of the debate). And, in fact, changing identity, appearance etc is an age-old historic criminal move. Maybe the court could be led to consider whether this renaming as female is less than entirely sincere? (Even if it is: what he did to you is appalling and you should be actively trying to make everyone else in the room feel, even if only for a few minutes, some of your own unease and fear about being there.)

Good luck. Let us know how it goes?

Bear in mind that it's possible that this thread might be mentioned by the prosecution. I would ask Mumsnet HQ to take it down today.

@SmileEachDay

cherrypie

You express not one shred of empathy or compassion forces the OP.

But you bother to say:

MN is highly transphobic as a whole, and don't even get me started on the 'feminism' board

You’re no friend to women, eh?

100% agree.

For some posters this is nothing to do with a vile MAN who has sexually abused women and children but is solely about point scoring and using the current fashion of pronoun-juggling to escape criminal prosecution. Nice one.

One day - I sincerely hope anyway- we will look back on this trend of pronoun swapping and exploiting people's terror of saying the wrong thing - and be disgusted that we allowed it to proliferate. And we will bitterly regret all the poor victims like the OP, who has been told by someone purporting to be a lawyer on this thread that she will appear 'vindictive' unless she swaps her pronouns properly. FFS.

I read about a woman who was reprimand by a judge, for not saying she and her, about a male born defendant. It is difficult but could you say, the defendant or whatever legal term is used to refer to the person. I know Caitlin Jenner's children still call her Dad. (From the Kardashian TV show) as she is still their Dad, l presume. To say 'my ex husband/partner' is that an option? As he was your husband or partner so it is correct. So sorry you had to endure so much suffering at the hands of a preditor.

First, he's a scumbag, and even the most hardened TRAs tend not to double down on defending people like him (which is why this thread hasn't been deleted yet, they're careful to be quiet about child offenders).

Second, you need to do exactly what your lawyer suggests, including using pronouns, and you need to practice looking unpained while you do it. He will be relying on this both throwing and hurting you. Don't give him the satisfaction. Feel smug inside for not letting it apparently phase you.

If you do slip up and say "he", apologise and say you're trying to remember memories factually and Suzie identified as a man back then, its not intentional.

Remember that no one is really fooled by it all, its just a game they play to "be kind" and to not get in trouble themselves.

Child offenders = child molesters, sorry.

What I would want to say and what I would actually say are two very different things. When you married and he committed these crimes he was male, I think the most diplomatic thing that could be expected of you would be to refer to him as your ex husband every time.

You didn't marry a female named Betty and this transition has come about after the crimes and once you separated. How can you give an honest statement using she and a female name.

I would be completely guided by decent and up to date legal advice on this as if some idiots decide you are bigoted it might go against you. What the fuck has the world come to.

Seriously though, we should start some kind of petition about this.

Its not acceptable that you're forced to lie about an event in the past.

To consider calling someone their correct gender following reassignment as lying is a bit dim witted even by MN standards.

If that’s the attitude OP takes, I fear that her ex won’t be the only person on remand.

I swear to tell the truth! 'He' ! If that is not acceptable, defendent or name at the time. If the percentage of male sex offenders identifying as trans females doesnt warrant investigation and raise safeguarding concerns when it comes to placing them in female prisons, i despair!

I’d refer to him as ‘my ex husband’. Or ‘the bastard’ 🤣

@Balhammom

To consider calling someone their correct gender following reassignment as lying is a bit dim witted even by MN standards.

If that’s the attitude OP takes, I fear that her ex won’t be the only person on remand.

Does he have a GRC? If not, then his legal sex is still male. What a world we live in when we have to swear on oath to tell the truth in a court of law and then be compelled to lie about a persons sex.

I'd suggest that calling a DV victim " vindictive and biased" simply for not getting the pronouns right is a bit 'dimwitted' Balhammom.