To be so so upset and angry

[BroomHandledMouser]

We have - very tentatively - booked a self catering holiday in August. It’s a beautiful cottage, north Devon and yards from the beach. It really does look lovely.

I’ve booked it for 6 of us - 4 adults me, DH, mum and step dad and our two children. I booked it as a surprise for everyone, so once I’d paid the deposit I called mum and told her. She was beyond excited!!

She immediately put in her holiday request.

She’s just called me in tears saying that it has been rejected due to capacity issues. She’s NHS - she has worked all through this pandemic, not once taking any time off. All she’s asking for is 20 hours - 20 fucking measly hours.

I’m so so upset. I wanted to take her away and get her to relax, and breath, and repair.

We’re still going, but my god I can’t stop crying. I’ve asked her to appeal the decision, but at the moment she doesn’t have anything left in her.

@MurrayTheMonk

You're just making stuff up.

No-one said there was a blanket no leave in August policy. No-one is stopping her having a break - she just can't have THOSE dates.

If you'd tell a member of your staff to go off sick because you can't agree to their leave because you already have as many people off as can be managed then you're a shit manager with no brain.

The same way I run my care home with not enough staff all the time (due to the crisis in social care) and particularly now (due to Covid)-by either doing it myself, relying on other members of my team to step up which they do for each other, all the time, or by using agency or bank staff. In the exact same way the NHS can also do.

Do you ever wonder why there is a recruitment and retention crisis in social care and the NHS? Could it be possibly be because they are expected to run on a shoe string and good will- and the staff work until they burn out with no allowances made for individual circumstances?

@Fairystory

I know it is awful but my experience of the NHS is that usually only staff with children were allowed annual leave in August. Also, Christmas leave was prioritised for those with children. As a grandparent going on holiday with children and doing the big family Christmas for children you are ignored by management. Is it possible for your mother to ask what weeks she could take and you try to change your booking?

Never thrown a sickie in my life but if this was routine practice in my workplace I would if I were routinely discriminated against.

I dont recall any workplace family planning discussions and colleagues without children agreeing to never want leave in August or at Christmas!

Also, depending on her role, it's worth noting that the beginning of August is usually when new graduate doctors start their first jobs working in hospitals (and the more experienced junior doctors move into a new role). Staff need to be around to facilitate this (even admin staff - helping set up IT accounts, dealing with pagers / name badges / swipe cards etc). It wouldn't work well if everyone was off on their holibobs.

@MurrayTheMonk you haven't answered what you do when all your staff request the same time off?

either doing it myself, relying on other members of my team to step up which they do for each other

But there won't be ANY staff if you just let them all have the same week, would there?

What if all those "other members" want the same week or follow your advice to go off sick?

We all know why there's a crisis in social care: low pay, shit terms. Obviously bad management too.

@MurrayTheMonk

Hahaha. Shit manager. Course I am. I've been managing care homes in the middle of a pandemic for the last 9 months and keeping my service users and teams safe. I've supported my staff through the worst possible of times. And I know that refusing even the prospect of a break -8 months in advance- can be soul destroying for staff-particularly as if the OP has said the woman hasn't taken leave for months. I'm not a shit manager precisely because I don't effect blanket 'no leave in August' policies and look at the needs of my individual staff before I make my decisions.

I’m guessing it’s not a “no leave in August “ policy, unless I’ve missed a bit of the OP. I assume it’s due to other people having booked their annual leave first.

@MurrayTheMonk

The same way I run my care home with not enough staff all the time (due to the crisis in social care) and particularly now (due to Covid)-by either doing it myself, relying on other members of my team to step up which they do for each other, all the time, or by using agency or bank staff. In the exact same way the NHS can also do.

Do you ever wonder why there is a recruitment and retention crisis in social care and the NHS? Could it be possibly be because they are expected to run on a shoe string and good will- and the staff work until they burn out with no allowances made for individual circumstances?

It's not a race to the bottom.

Nobody is denying that NHS staff haven't worked their backsides off this year, but that still doesn't entitle them to have time off whenever they fancy

Use of agency staff etc. might be possible but it's expensive. Much better for staff holiday to be planned properly so everyone gets a break and it's affordable for the hospital.

@MurrayTheMonk

I'd advise her to call in bloody sick actually... I'm a care home manager and we are under the Kosh right now. The lat thing I'd do is fuck my staffs morale even more by refusing holiday requests for august. People need hope. And they need time off.or they burn out.

But you'd fuck your care home up by giving holiday to everyone at the same time, in case it affected morale?

How would that work?

I think you are being unreasonable to book a holiday in the first place. You have no idea what lockdowns and tiers are in going to be in place during the year.

I'd advise her to call in bloody sick actually... I'm a care home manager and we are under the Kosh right now. The lat thing I'd do is fuck my staffs morale even more by refusing holiday requests for august. People need hope. And they need time off.or they burn out

You’re not a care hone manager are you? Clearly if you were you’d understand that if enough staff had booked vacation in aug you were lacking capacity and in skeleton staff you’d not be giving more holiday and declaring the residents couldn’t be cared for. Nor would you be advising your staff to call in sick.

You might work in a care home and not understand the running of one, hence your post. But no manager would post what you did.

Yes I've definitely go no brain. Do you think people don't go off sick when they actually want leave all the time?
Lots of people have said the NHS policy in their area is to have a policy of no leave except for those with children in August. Great until someone's gran wants to take 20 hours leave to be with their family who they have not seen for months- not least because they have been working their arse off for the whole time. And one of the reasons people leave the NHS and care in droves is exactly this kind of thing. The lack of value placed on them. Which I'm sure you can see would be a far worse outcome for the NHS in general than considering individual circumstance and giving someone 20 hours leave... because clearly you yourself are super intelligent.

This thread is truly baffling, seeing the outrage from some posters. I can only assume they don’t work.

I’ve been working for 30 years and there hasn’t been a single year in all that time when I’ve had all the annual leave I wanted. Which is logical really, when you think about it. Everyone wants time off in summer, also around Christmas and new year is nice, and once you have kids you want school holidays. But we can’t all have the same time, unless we work in an industry that can safely shut down every now and then. I’m not aware of any of those!

@PanamaPattie

I think you are being unreasonable to book a holiday in the first place. You have no idea what lockdowns and tiers are in going to be in place during the year.

That's just silly. If OP isn't allowed to travel at the time then it will be cancelled, but it's not unreasonable to book in the hope that it will be feasible to have a holiday at the time.

@MurrayTheMonk

Yes I've definitely go no brain. Do you think people don't go off sick when they actually want leave all the time? Lots of people have said the NHS policy in their area is to have a policy of no leave except for those with children in August. Great until someone's gran wants to take 20 hours leave to be with their family who they have not seen for months- not least because they have been working their arse off for the whole time. And one of the reasons people leave the NHS and care in droves is exactly this kind of thing. The lack of value placed on them. Which I'm sure you can see would be a far worse outcome for the NHS in general than considering individual circumstance and giving someone 20 hours leave... because clearly you yourself are super intelligent.

But what happens if everyone wants the same week?

@Fairystory

I know it is awful but my experience of the NHS is that usually only staff with children were allowed annual leave in August. Also, Christmas leave was prioritised for those with children. As a grandparent going on holiday with children and doing the big family Christmas for children you are ignored by management. Is it possible for your mother to ask what weeks she could take and you try to change your booking?

That policy is really tough on child free couples whose partners are teachers!

Their only chance of a fortnight away together would be easter.

They can't stop her taking leave at all. Maybe it's just booked up because of school holidays.

I'm not a shit manager precisely because I don't effect blanket 'no leave in August' policies and look at the needs of my individual staff before I make my decisions.

but you don't seem to understand that it's not the case at all - it is that OP's mum didn't get her leave request in time and all the leave slots are full up.

Could you write to someone high up in the hospital saying what you have here. They might choose to pull some strings?

Some people really do live on another planet, don't they?

OP, you tried to do a nice thing and it didn't work out. It's disappointing but that's just the way it goes sometimes. Fine to be upset but you really don't have any right to be "angry". I would never expect to be granted annual leave for August in January, you have to be way quicker off the mark in many workplaces. Lesson learned, next time just make sure your DM can get the time off before booking.

I am a care home manager yes. With outstanding rated homes. There is no way on earth everyone in that department has requested the same 20 hours leave. What is more likely is that the managers know that August is a pinch point and can't even be bothered to look at it properly.

What I do is look at everyone's requests fairly and consider what happened the previous leave year and what we can do to accommodate people. Both the NHS and care have to use bank and agency all the time-if that means timing it so that people can take leave to allow them to be with their family then fine-it's my budget to move around. I don't just simply say 'no due to capacity issues' for a leave request made 8 months in advance. Because that would be crushing to staff morale at a time when it's already through the floor. It's more Labour intensive but it also means my staff are happier and stay in post longer.
I've been doing this for 20 years and it's never been an issue but I'm sure all the high qualified people who have just said I'm stupid and shit, will tell me I'm wrong Fortunately for me my staff seem to appreciate the approach and it's one of the reasons my staff turn over is relatively low-which in turn makes for more consistent care for my service users.

Do you think people don't go off sick when they actually want leave all the time?

We know they do. No-one has suggested people don't. You're pretty good at straw man arguments but not so good at the logic.

If managers are not only condoning but advising people who have holiday refused to go off sick then you can see why it happens a lot.

In the real world (aka private sector) many holiday policies say that if you go off sick on dates you have had holiday denied you will be subject to disciplinary action. As I said, I've dismissed people for this behavior.

You've still not answered what you'd do when everyone is off at once, given you allow all holiday requested or encourage people to be off sick (fraudulently being paid statutory sick pay if entitled).

You've still not answered what you'd do when everyone is off at once, given you allow all holiday requested or encourage people to be off sick (fraudulently being paid statutory sick pay if entitled).

She's clearly looked into her crystal ball and counted the amount of agency staff who will be at her beck and call in August, no matter what Covid levels are like...

The same way I run my care home with not enough staff all the time (due to the crisis in social care) and particularly now (due to Covid)-by either doing it myself, relying on other members of my team to step up which they do for each other, all the time
So because you can’t effectively manage your staff rota and want to be the best manager ever, you put extra workload on your already overworked staff?
MANAGER OF THE YEAR!

No wonder care staff are hacked off of management is like this.

Booking a holiday in August without having leave authorised first ?
Very silly 🙃.

Could you write to someone high up in the hospital saying what you have here. They might choose to pull some strings?

This isn't Doctors or Call The Midwife. Nothing remotely like this happens in real life.