So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

But you only have to look at the relationship board to see that for a lot of people it totally hits them out of the blue that they no longer can live the sort of lifestyle that they are used to - believe me its easier said than done, would someone who is used to living in a nice house with kids in private school and a nice car really cope well with living a small rented house and no longer being able to afford school fees or holidays and scrimping on food, but what if they had kept their career up or started a business and could carry on with the same outgoings and lifestyle, wouldn't they prefer that. I don't think most people who quit their career has realistically considered how they would cope financially if they are in the 50% of relationships that fail.

Plus lets think about the many people who stay in emotionally, financially, or physically abusive relationships and end up depressed because they don't think there are any options open to them.

If you have a partner nursery is a shared cost,both proportionately pay
Why are women recalling nursery was = their wage?why is it not shared cost

Wow your super out of touch then!

I wanted to stay home with my first born and at that point earned more than my partner.

I don’t have a career now but I don’t regret it. I wouldn’t say he has a career either though really?

I now run my own business....happily.

Not RTFT but I think some women actually think about this. I never did. But it was clear to me that most of the people I knew had met and married men who were outearning them by some way.

I wasn't, other than for about two years in our relationship, I have always outearned DH - and significantly, right from the beginning so it's not the case that I chose to work PT when ds came along and so earned less. He's an intelligent man with an Oxford degree - I didn't marry "beneath" me - he just hasn't earned that much. I think other women make sure they choose someone who will take care of them (until he buggers off with another woman of course).

When ds was small and I worked FT, I definitely got the impression that some of the SAHMs looked down on me for "having to work". There was the usual judgeyness about putting a small baby into nursery, but it was more than that. I hadn't chosen my man wisely enough.

Women are the ones giving birth . They’ll be the ones who are keener to stay at home

@TeenPlusTwenties that’s the case in our house DH is 6 years older than me...not enough time to catch up on before babies.

Also he’s a complete brainiac I’m good but I’m. It that not that good - never will be so can’t command the salary that he does.

@Phineyj

The stats show clearly that the gender gap only emerges when children come along. There have been a lot of threads speculating about the causes.

Completely incorrect! Gender pay gap is actually occurrent as soon as they leave the grad scheme. I would

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

If you have a partner nursery is a shared cost,both proportionately pay Why are women recalling nursery was = their wage?why is it not shared cost

Because those are the people who are in danger of not being able to make the joint books balance at all, and those are the the women that often get driven out of the workplace against their will because childcare is so expensive. It’s all very well better off feminists lecturing them ad nauseum that “childcare is a shared cost” but if their potential child care bill is larger than one of the wages coming MN to the house (often the woman’s) then they are in a tight spot.

What would really help them is state subsidied childcare for all children over one, similar to France or Sweden. So subsidised that anyone can afford it, and starting early enough that there is no gap between the end of statutory maternity leave and the start of subsidised childcare.

Women are lucky that they get to do this. Much nicer to be at home with the children than slaving under the millstone at work. It's much harder for a man who wants to reduce his working hours to be at home.

@wonderup

I thought young women out earned men now

Wow you really are out of touch then!

Perhaps reread my two line post Ricki I’m not lecturing anyone,
Your explanation makes no sense. Why if there are 2 wages is childcare costs borne by the woman, why is it not split
Even if the nursery cost is similar to female wage that does not mean that mean she has to give up work

@OwlWearingGlasses

Women are lucky that they get to do this. Much nicer to be at home with the children than slaving under the millstone at work. It's much harder for a man who wants to reduce his working hours to be at home.

That’s if those women lack the work ethic and sense of ambition that you clearly do!😁

There have been lots of good comments here about the reality of how being pregnant, taking maternity leave, inevitably being the lead parent impact women. All true.

But I think it starts way sooner than that. For a start, this fallacy that women don't ask for raises, promotions etc. More recent research shows they do. But they don't get raises, promotions etc at the same rate. So a woman might ask, but her raise, if she gets it, will be smaller than a man who asks.

Another absolutely key thing is still that women gravitate to less well paid industries and careers and there are huge societal issues to this from why are these careers less well paid to why are women always in them.

I was very successful, worked in the City at investment banks. Was promoted etc etc. But .... 1. I earned less than men in similar roles. IN part, ironically, this was because I was often younger than those men and somehow therefore it was justified. And in part it was because I was a woman. 2. I had a great career and achieved relative seniority quite young BUT I worked in a (female dominated) support function and therefore we ALL earned less. I have many male friends who were junior to me in banks and even though they also worked in support roles, they were male dominated support roles - IT , business management etc - and so they earned more in both salary and bonus.

I hav asked myself many times why roles in functions like HR and Communications and Marketing, all female dominated, are always the least well paid within big corporates. These roles are as important. My male friends in IT, business management, project management etc were not only junior to me but also had a fraction of the access and "power" I had in terms of senior people within the organisation. But these roles are still seen as lesser, and earn less. (except for at the most senior levels where, interestingly, men are more represented: Women make up the majority of people working in these roles but the most senior roles have a higher proportion of men compared to the average. Which is yet another issue).

If you're born female in a patriarchal society, this is what you get.

The fault is not with women for wanting to do woman-things, it's with the structures of society and the power-holders for ensuring women are kept down.

@MaudHatter

Women are the ones giving birth . They’ll be the ones who are keener to stay at home

I know it's not the 'done' thing to say so on MN.... but I think this is a huge amount to do with it.

Nothing to do with age, intelligence, experience, career prospects or anything like that.

Women give birth. Women breast feed. Women get socked with hormonal emotions and feelings and urges.

Men do not give birth, cannot breast feed, by definition they do not get socked with the same level of hormonal emotions and feelings and urges.

I am married to a man who has always been a very hands on and very emotionally aware, affectionate, sensible, loving father to our three DC. Always did feeds and nappy changes and has always been more than capable of managing all three whilst I did other stuff. Never the kind of opt-out arsehole you see so often on here.

But he did not have the hormonal reactions I did when they were tiny babies. That feeling when they cry and your boobs fill up with milk so fast it hurts. That maternal urge. That physical need to be close to them. Not because he's an arse. Just because he is male and I am female and I gave birth to them and he did not.

I didn’t have that visceral reaction to my kids, don’t recognise that description @FlyingPandas
Love them very much but I needed to be myself and something for me too
Maternal urge never compelled me to stay home. I felt bored & restless on mat leave

This is just anecdotal but a few things go wrong, mainly:
women don't negotiate pay when offered a job. They accept the first offer. Women don't ask for pay rises. Women don't leave secure jobs for a similar role at higher pay or threaten to do so, in order to secure a better rate. Women don't apply for jobs they are only partially qualified to do especially if the pay rate is a huge jump up - men do.

When I first read this I changed how I behaved. I have always managed to negotiate higher pay if I have wanted it. Always. Every single time. Spread the word.

And on several occasions my career took a leap because I applied for a job way above my pay scale and capability, and got it.

I don't usually think women's lives are improved by behaving like men but in regard to work and pay, we have a lot to learn from them. Interestingly, a friend who is a real high flier has a daughter who was quite good at her job, not brilliant but good, who kept moving laterally, increasing her pay every year during her twenties. She's now in her late mid twenties on a fantastic salary in a career where loads of people, especially women, get stuck at entry level salaries for decades.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

Perhaps reread my two line post Ricki I’m not lecturing anyone, Your explanation makes no sense. Why if there are 2 wages is childcare costs borne by the woman, why is it not split Even if the nursery cost is similar to female wage that does not mean that mean she has to give up work

Oh no I understood what you said, but I don’t think you understand what I am saying. I used to work with women on that kind of pay rate who dropped out in droves and that is why. I was baffled at first and the conversations around it really opened my eyes.

Their accounting and their reasoning was hard to counter, and they didn’t want to give up their careers, but say you have one income of £12k pa Net and one of £22k pa Net and the FT nursery bill is going to be 14kpa, then your margins are very tight and your choices are very limited.

Actually I’d have been in a similar spot if I’d divorced any earlier, although I only realised in retrospect.

Repeating that “childcare is a shared cost“ doesn’t make either of the incomes larger, it doesn’t make childcare cheaper and it doesn’t help single mothers at all.

Also the opposite of being a SAHM or even a working mother isn’t having a high flying career. They aren’t the only two choices available.

I hate it when I say I’m childfree and people automatically assume I’m a career driven party girl! I’m neither, I’m just me and I don’t want children.

Your explanation is nonsensical Repeating yourself for emphasis doesn’t help
Single mother entirely different,not comparable . I did actually make clear distinction why is childcare not shared on couples

I earned more than DH when we met. I chose not to return to my job after DC1 was born. I then chose to only work around DC.

DH now earns 4 times as much as I do. The hours he works would require a full time nanny- his colleagues either have partners with part time jobs, nannies, or their DC weekly board. There was an outcry when they realised a single parent collected their child from nursery at 5pm everyday.

My point is many jobs just don't allow for both parents to continue to work full time. It's usually the mother who chooses to sacrifice her career. Personally I was happy with the decision (I consider myself very lucky that I didn't have to work, and could spend that time with our DC) I would have become ill if I'd had to leave DC1 with anyone other than DH, and DH had no intention of being a SAHD.

But until it's acceptable for people (men) to part time one partner is going to have to take a pay hit to be with the DC.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

Your explanation is nonsensical Repeating yourself for emphasis doesn’t help Single mother entirely different,not comparable . I did actually make clear distinction why is childcare not shared on couples

Which bit is it that you’re struggling to understand?

@BlingLoving

I agree.

I stayed in further education to qualify into law. My now husband started work straight out of uni. He’d been working for two years before I got my first job. I tended to stay in one role which was safe and work hard and not push for pay rise and promotions. Just like i had been taught at school. Got made redundant. Later learnt that just head down and working hard gets you nowhere.

He meanwhile kept switching jobs to get experience and promotions.

Marriage. Babies. Then I stayed in a reasonable paid but safe role with great maternity benefits until I’d had our second. He out-earns me hugely now, even with his own business, partly because he’s more experience and partly because he takes more risks. More to lose but he hasn’t yet.

Why you do t consider it a joint cost if there are two wages?
Housing and utilities are usually sHared costs as couple ,why isn’t child care

Ok so as you say 12k pa Net and one of £22k pa Net and the FT nursery bill is going to be 14kpa
Why aren’t they sharing the cost from the respective wages?
Why does it make the female wage the dispensible one?