So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

So if maternity leave is a big driver of this, how do you feel about equal maternity/paternity leave? On here I’ve often seen a reluctance.

Would you be happy if society moved to share the leave in most cases?

So why do so many women give up their careers?

Because most people only work for the money. When your partner’s salary can easily provide for the whole family the idea of continuing the ratrace becomes less appealing.

I do agree with the poster that said that most women want to marry a man who earns more than them. This of course means that it can be hard to justify him being the one to quit his job.

Aside from that, most women I’ve worked with seem to change priorities and the baby suddenly becomes much more important than the office job.

After I had my son I went back to work when he was 10 months old and I went back full time (37.5 hours over 3 days) and my colleagues were horrified...,I would frequently get passive aggressive comments how it was such a long time to spend away from such a young child. These were all women as I work in a very female dominated role.

About a year later a job came up for promotion....myself, two other women went for it (who were both engaged) and a male member of staff. None of us were surprised when although viewed as the least likely candidate, the man got the job.

I then went on to have a second child and returned to work when he was 12 months old and this time I went back part time: 25 hours over two days. It was only because my husband had gotten a promotion which enabled it.

Since going back to work I have tried for two promotions. Both times I have gone up against full time women who are far less qualified than me and each time one of them got the job.

On the last occasion there were two jobs going and four of us applied. Two of the women were early twenties and had only been in the job for 4-5 years and worked full time. The other two women, myself and another, had been in the job for well over 10 years but both worked part time because we had young children. When the interviews were over I said to her that I could guarantee we wouldn’t get the jobs despite being more qualified because we are part time and have young children....and surprise, surprise we didn’t.

We have since come to accept that trying to get ahead in our place of work is pointless unless you are full time with no other responsibilities.

She has since gone on to have another baby and I am now training to do another job and will leave my current job once I’ve received my qualification for my new role.

As it stands my husband has since had another promotion, earns well over double what I do, and it’s only because I’m at home with the children four days a week that he’s able to do the hours he does and we don’t have any childcare costs.

Sometimes women fall into these situations through no fault of their own.

@BillMasen exactly, I see so many women say “oh but I want all that time off myself”, when perhaps their OH would really like that time to bonds with DC too.

Stepping back isn’t the only option. During my 1st pregnancy I worked for a big name company which wasn’t family friendly at all. When I got made redundant (not related to being pregnant, though being ‘of age’ probably played a factor in being selected) I went to work for a competitor, but initially I took a lower role as I was pg and based on experiences thought I should step back to suit better after mat leave.
Anyway I then realised that it was not that motherhood was incompatible with my career, but rather that it was the former company who would not facilitate motherhood, as I now worked in an environment with flexible working (I still need to put the hours in to progress, but I have more autonomy how I do that).

Think of the employers who, pre-COVID, claimed it wasn’t possible to have WFH as part of flexible working, but now suddenly they can make it work. Or put women on furlough rather than coming up with how to make the current challenges work.

If anything I’ve felt more career-driven post-DC so I can give them more and also to financially protect myself.

Obviously part of it is the society we live in and the way women have been conditioned, i.e. the point about undervaluing themselves when applying for promotions compared to men etc...

But I do agree that a lot of women tend to go on about the patriarchy etc... Whilst not helping the cause.

I.e. I can't think of a single one of my friends (and I'm including myself!) Who would have been happy for their husbands to take half of their maternity leave and stay home with the children whilst she went to work. I've noticed, as PP mentioned, that for a lot of women, priorities change once a baby is around. They certainly did for me. I simply didn't care as much anymore about my job 🤷 I wanted to be the one who got to see my kids grow up day to day. It would have been totally fair for DH to say that he actually wanted some of that time, suggest we both go part time to split it or whatever, but it wouldn't have been what I wanted, it would have made me sad having to go to work and leave my babies.

Not everyone feels that way, obviously. But I think a lot of women actually do but won't admit it because it plays into the thing they are trying to argue against.

It does frustrate me when I see threads on here and it's always 'oh DH absolutely CAN'T take any time off', 'my wage wouldn't cover nursery fees' etc etc... Like just admit that it's because you want to be off? It's either that or you have a husband who refuses to help.

The ongoing problem is that businesses are ultimately going to do what causes the least hassle for them, as far as they’re legally able.

In my last project management job, we had a woman in her late 20s join the team. She didn’t mention that she was pregnant and ended up going on maternity leave before she even managed her first project - there was a lot of training and generally you would assist with a few bids/projects before being given a big one to manage.

She got to keep the company car etc whilst on maternity leave, and she then became pregnant within a couple of months of returning to work. By the end of a three year period she’d still not managed a single project and the company had needed to train up two temps to do the role as well as leasing a BMW for somebody that hadn’t contributed to the business in any meaningful way.

So, I can see why recruiters are often reticent to employ women of a certain age, but at the same time I really feel for those that maybe have no intention of having kids (or aren’t able to) but who still get discriminated against when applying.

@BagsOFr

Obviously part of it is the society we live in and the way women have been conditioned, i.e. the point about undervaluing themselves when applying for promotions compared to men etc...

But I do agree that a lot of women tend to go on about the patriarchy etc... Whilst not helping the cause.

I.e. I can't think of a single one of my friends (and I'm including myself!) Who would have been happy for their husbands to take half of their maternity leave and stay home with the children whilst she went to work. I've noticed, as PP mentioned, that for a lot of women, priorities change once a baby is around. They certainly did for me. I simply didn't care as much anymore about my job 🤷 I wanted to be the one who got to see my kids grow up day to day. It would have been totally fair for DH to say that he actually wanted some of that time, suggest we both go part time to split it or whatever, but it wouldn't have been what I wanted, it would have made me sad having to go to work and leave my babies.

Not everyone feels that way, obviously. But I think a lot of women actually do but won't admit it because it plays into the thing they are trying to argue against.

It does frustrate me when I see threads on here and it's always 'oh DH absolutely CAN'T take any time off', 'my wage wouldn't cover nursery fees' etc etc... Like just admit that it's because you want to be off? It's either that or you have a husband who refuses to help.

Absolutely this!

It’s like how nobody admits that wealth is a desirable factor when choosing a husband, or when people claim not to judge morbidly obese people etc.

I stepped away from my career (earning more than DH, even for 4 days a week) for a few years when the children were small because it was killing me mentally and physically to do a professional, demanding job and be a mum to young children as well and I was completely burnt out at age 35/36. All very well to say to women to go out and get high paying jobs but they are not all they are cracked up to be and can be boring, stressful and soul destroying (as can many lower paid jobs as well). It took me until my early 40s to find a job which pays well, is enjoyable and isn't too stressful. Jobs like this are like gold dust.

I completely disagree that women are encouraged to sit pretty and undervalue themselves. I have never felt like that. I have always been encouraged (by family, school and society in general) to work hard, push myself and yes, apply for promotions. I am 39 if that helps, maybe older women feel differently.

I think if women give up work it's because they usually want to. I don't have kids but my sister when she had hers said she was no way she was "letting" her husband cut his hours as she went through the hassle of bearing the children so should reap the benefit of working less.

A couple of observations:

Women are less likely to network and to leverage their professional connections in order to get ahead in their careers. They are less likely to be frank and direct about what they want to get out of these interactions. In fact, I’ve seen women denounced for this multiple times on MN: ‘why don’t you get a job on your own merit?’

Surprise surprise, who you know does often matter, and men aren’t ashamed of that one bit, but somehow women berate each other for this and cling on to this glorious standard of ‘self-sufficient’ behaviour.

——

2/

I studied English at Oxford, a subject where male candidates consistently get more first-class degrees than women. To get a first you need to be making original points, and some Examiners’ reports attributed this gap to a higher level of risk taking in exams: male candidates were more likely to be bold in their answers, to develop novel conclusions with brazen confidence, to deploy unconventional techniques like humour in their written responses. It didn’t always work, but when it did it paid dividends.

Something like that makes me reflect that gender socialisation still plays a significant role in professional advancement.

@nochristmasbreak

It's a bit of a longer story (I finished maternity leave, was put on furlough, then made redundant). My DH has offered to take over the childcare and find a part time job himself so I can go back full time. It seemed a bit silly to ask him to leave a very good and stable job when I've already lost mine and need to find a new one anyway
Basically one of us needs to take the hit, I decided to do it but it wasn't forced on me. I've accepted it's the way it is.

So why do so many women give up their careers?

It’s madness to do this. It’s all fun and games until your DH is balls deep in a 20 year old and you can’t afford the mortgage on your own and have a 7 year career gap to explain.

You don’t need to spend much time on Mumsnet to see this scenario pop up time and time again.

@BumbleBiscuit

So why do so many women give up their careers?

It’s madness to do this. It’s all fun and games until your DH is balls deep in a 20 year old and you can’t afford the mortgage on your own and have a 7 year career gap to explain.

You don’t need to spend much time on Mumsnet to see this scenario pop up time and time again.

But how many couples can afford to maintain their old lifestyle if they split up? Wouldn’t many of them say that they need two wages coming in to make ends meet? I think they would need to adapt massively either way.

Granted, the CV gap is a main blow here,

@MaskingForIt

Women chose men who earn more than them.

Women want to stay home with their babies and so fall behind in pay/progression.

This would all be solved if women wanted to date low-earning men and were willing to work full-time after maternity leave.

Yes, women are more likely to go after a guy with prospects rather than one who can't hold down a job, or has a low paid job with no aspirations.

We always see these threads on here about how it all ‘went wrong’ and how the husband always ends up shagging then secretary. However, whenever research is undertaken it actually shows an entirely different reality.

It is confirmation of what many weary commuters have secretly suspected.

Research has found that stay-at-home mothers are happier than those who go out to work.

The survey said that if staying at home with the children were counted as a job, it would rank as having happier workers than any other trade or profession.

The findings reinforce the results of large-scale research on well-being carried out by the Office for National Statistics, which has shown that stay-at-home mothers believe their lives are more worthwhile than their counterparts in work.

Government surveys have also shown that more than a third of mothers who go out to work would like to give up their jobs and stay at home with their children.

Survey finds stay-at-home mothers are more satisfied than any other profession

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3634473/The-job-makes-happiest-Housewife-Survey-finds-stay-home-mothers-satisfied-profession.html

@TaleOfTheContinents

Imposter syndrome tends to be more common in women and I think it really hinders career progression. I work in an all-women team and they're a talented bunch but we (and I include myself) all really struggle with self-doubt! I'm sure with some confidence and belief in our abilities we'd be miles ahead in our careers.

Completely agree, it’s a pervasive issue. It even infiltrates the caveated, timid language of women: saying ‘perhaps’ when you really mean ‘definitely’, or ‘I think’ instead of ‘I know’. It’s an issue before women have kids, but then after a career gap, their confidence tends to be completely shot.

‘Why are you interested in the job?’
‘I thought I could probably manage to do it...’

And yes, fake it til you make it can be a necessity.

I out earn my husband by going to uni when we first got married. I had 4 kids adopted 1 they all went to childcare and we worked. I didn't give up my intelligence ECT
Just to sit and watch kids tv
😁

I’d also point out that most SAHM have experience of working full time, but many workers have not been a SAHM. The former group have a better basis for comparison when indicating what makes them happiest IMO.

I thought the happiest women were meant to be without a spouse or dc?

@wonderup

I thought the happiest women were meant to be without a spouse or dc?

Being single isn’t a profession (even if some try and make it one).

?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert

The link I posted is comparing women who work vs women who stay at home.

I'm sure someone will be along to shoot me down for saying this but I think a lot of women like to play the victim when it comes to things like giving up careers, staying at home with the kids etc... When in reality its what they wanted and they wouldn't have wanted their husbands to do it instead of them.

That's why we see so much 'I gave up my career so he could work on his' as if it was a completely selfless sacrifice that they didn't actually want when really I usually read that and think...Hmmm... I wonder what you would have said if your husband had wanted to be the SAHP.

And I think it's often because we know that it goes against what we are all supposed to be fighting for so we want to be seen as not having a choice, being made to do X, Y or Z, it's all down to the patriarchy and nothing to do with us.

In reality I think a lot of women are happy with the way things are in terms of childcare, staying at home, giving up careers to care for kids etc... It's only when it comes back to bite that you see the 'I made this huge sacrifice for you!!'