So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

What is wrong is the U.K. and many other places have inadequate and unaffordable childcare provisions coupled with the overly demanding job. Plus add the commuting to that.
In Norway and Croatia, all my female friends with kids work. I can’t say the same for my friends here and in NZ.
I am not saying that staying at home is wrong. I did that at one point too and loved it but I often look at my Norwegian friends and feel they have it so much better. Shorter hours, affordable childcare, a short commute, and the expectation that your family comes first. Yes, yes everything there is expensive, and yes they pay high taxes but it’s not like we don’t pay high taxes here. They certainly get more out of their taxes!

There are so many different variables to this. It also depends on the sector you work in and the market rates for the jobs that you do.

DH and I are the same school year age, and I am that much-despised creature, the highly educated woman who resigned from my job to be a SAHM for many years. For two key reasons - I didn't feel I was giving enough to the job, and I actually really enjoyed being at home with DC. DH is a lovely, loving parent but would not have wanted to be home full time. I did. I'm sure there's a huge amount of social conditioning in there somewhere but it's the reality of our situation.

I wanted to be home with the DC.

Three DC and many SAHM years later, I'm now working again (and loving it) but I earn literally a fraction of what DH does. He carried on his career and earns a lot, I now work PT in a school which is lovely and fits well around the DC but earns me very little.

So - shock, horror, yuck, etc, yes, I prove the 'where does it all go wrong?' statistic.

BUT - the reality is that even if we had not had children, even if I had carried on with 100% focus on my career, with no distractions and no maternity leave breaks, I would not be earning what DH is now. I'd still be earning around 1/3 of his salary, as I was when we first met. For the simple reason that we picked careers with very different remuneration prospects. I was in HR when we met, DH in finance, there are lots of parallels between what we both used to do (supporting business partners, lots of pressure/demands from said business partners etc) but the reality is that accountancy pays more than HR and DH was outstripping my earnings even when we were in our twenties and child free. Nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with being a qualified accountant rather than an HR professional.

It's just different career choices and different skills sets in our case.

But I do agree that it does 'go wrong' for so many and I also think it's not just because society dictates it. I just wanted to stay home with my DC because I genuinely enjoyed it and wanted to. I'm not sure how you get around that fundamental instinct.

I agree with the part time point. If it were more socially acceptable for men to work part time after having kids then things would balance out more.

This.

Women also make the choices.

I left university and met my ExH in my first job. I trained in a profession so earned more than my H. I had children late ie 35. By then I was quite senior. I took full maternity leave Of a year and then part time 22hrs week until they were both at school. I now work Full time term time only but still in a very senior role. The main issue I think is that I never took any real time out, So my salary and promotions have never suffered. Really grateful now that I’m divorced that I’m financially secure.

I married someone a few years older than me with professional exams, so he has always earned more than me. One year, his pay rise was more than my PT pay doing admin, so I retrained...

I finished top first with lots of prizes. It was a course full of private school boys with connections. I was pretty much the only person not to get a graduate place and often not even an interview. All the equal ops stuff in the company blurbs was just bs. The only female lecturer told me to ditch the wedding ring. The male professors told me all sorts of "if your face fits" stories...

I went off and did other stuff for a while, then finally got a temp job and had senior members of the profession say things like " you won't be recruited at your age, companies won't get their monies' worth." I had employers say they won't recruit women who might get pregnant to my face, as for some reason, people just tell me their shit.

I knew full well from the boys that they also had not intentions of long-term commitment, as they all liked to travel, etc.

Anyway, it all worked out, I did my own thing for myself and never actually qualified. I saw a while back a post on here from someone in the same profession and it looks like nothing much has changed. Still a boys club supported by attending/playing in sporting events and the old boys network. It was eye-opening, to say the very least. Messes with your head that despite how hard you try, you'll never be considered for jobs. Never got as far as promotions...

The stats show clearly that the gender gap only emerges when children come along

This.

When I had my first I was entitled to a years maternity leave, all of it paid to some level. DH was entitled to 2 weeks paid and didn't even get that, actually due to an 'emergency' that he had to go in to cover.

We discussed him sharing the childcare in that first year, but doing that, even assuming he'd have been given unpaid leave to do so (which wasn't a given) would have massively disadvantaged us financially. From what seemed then to be a relatively unambiguous financial decision came the rest. From that year onwards any decision about our respective careers and childcare when looked at from the point of view of what was best financially for the family unit, always meant that his career was prioritised while I was the main carer for our child.

Of course now there's shared parental leave but I think until it's use it or lose it we're unlikely to see much change, it's only in those countries where they've done this where real change has occurred.

Interestingly my SIL is the main bread winner, funny enough she has 4 DC, took a years maternity leave and it hasnt affected her career at all. She is a lawyer in a main city bank in london and has a nice healthy bonus every year too. If she could have she would have SAH, however she wanted her DC privately educated and she made a choice to work. Her DC are excelling and havent been impacted by having a nanny. I have always worked, my chosen career path doesnt have the same earning potential as my DH. However I am still well above the national average, my DH earns more however we both have roles that allows us to share the drop offs and pick ups. He also takes my DS off to rugby each sunday as he is a coach. I had never ever considered not working after having DC, however I am mindful I come from a broken home and growing up with that experience has made me fiercely independent and never wanting to be reliant on a man. I have to be honest I completely understand why people choose to SAH however I am always a little shocked at the numbers of woman who dont consider the impact of not working in the event they seperate especially if unmarried.

I earned more than DH when we met. Then as we had kids by the time I got to 49 I earned less due to going part time. Then I did an MA and landed a different full time job when youngest was teen and now I'm on £20k more a year than him. It's taken me to age 54 to do it though.

Age gap. You can be earning the same at the same stage, but in your late 20s/early 30s, 5 years experience/promotions is a big difference. Then it just makes sense for the lower earner to be the one to go part time...

So why do so many women give up their careers? because they want to.

But why is not having a fly highing career going wrong?
What is wrong with working part time?
If you are happy and your children are happy. You cant have it all. You can't same with men. They dont have it all. Most men working all the hours don't have the relationship with their children they would hope for. Its really not possible to do it all.
Stop being super human.
When you have children, everything changes. Stop thinking it doesn't.

The sad fact is that 50% of marriages end in divorce - there are plenty of examples even here and being happy to take a step back and 'earn a fraction of what DH earns' can be scary when you are used to living in a certain way, there's even been posters on here who have been totally cut off from what they thought was joint money the money they split up.

Here's an example your DH earn 100k, you earn 20k - you break up, child support for 2 kids is approx 800 maybe 850 a month - how are you going to pay the mortgage and bills now? as a single person your looking at max 4.5x borrowing and child benefit isn't included. What if you have nursery fees or school fees or a car loan?

That's why i've always liked @Xenia's posts over the years encouraging people to find ways to increase their income to high levels on their own.

@5zeds

So why do so many women give up their careers? because they want to.

Hallelujah. Carrers do not equal success. Careers do not equal happiness. Being content with your life Whether that is stay at home, part time, full time, children, no children. Stop comparing. Be content.

@Esse321

The sad fact is that 50% of marriages end in divorce - there are plenty of examples even here and being happy to take a step back and 'earn a fraction of what DH earns' can be scary when you are used to living in a certain way, there's even been posters on here who have been totally cut off from what they thought was joint money the money they split up.

Here's an example your DH earn 100k, you earn 20k - you break up, child support for 2 kids is approx 800 maybe 850 a month - how are you going to pay the mortgage and bills now? as a single person your looking at max 4.5x borrowing and child benefit isn't included. What if you have nursery fees or school fees or a car loan?

That's why i've always liked @Xenia's posts over the years encouraging people to find ways to increase their income to high levels on their own.

Then you adapt. And you change. No one gets married wanting to get divorced. Life throws things at you and you adapt. You can't have the same life all the way through life.

I think you’re overestimating the ambition of some women.

I’ve encountered so many educated, intelligent women who are progressing up the ladder nicely then take the foot off the pedal as soon as there’s a sniff of a ring and a wedding to plan. By the time the baby arrives, they’re happy to not work in any meaningful way ever again.

Because domestic work is not shared equally.

Women work, do child care and domestic chores.

Men work and use a variety of tactics to avoid sharing child care and domestic chores.

See: the mental load, feigned incompetence, sexism, the patriarchy.

Without kids in the mix, the lack of contribution from men is less noticable because the sum of labour required to run a house for 2 adults is minimal, relatively speaking. So even if the woman does it all, she can still perform highly at work and have a social life, go to the gym, etc.

I just wanted to stay home with my DC because I genuinely enjoyed it and wanted to. I'm not sure how you get around that fundamental instinct

Yes, this is a big part of it. I know that DH could have taken 50% paternity leave shared with me, but when my babies were 6 months old I simply did not want to leave them yet. It felt too soon.

The majority opinion on MN is that choosing to stay at home with your DC is financial and professional suicide. And the only way to make sure you don’t end up destitute ten years down the line is to go back to work full time ASAP and chuck the DC in full time childcare.

Thing is, I didn’t decide to get married and have children just so I could keep living like I’m a single childless person and DH is going to fuck me over any day.

We created a family and the paradigm shifted and we all adapted. I certainly don’t necessarily feel hard done by. DH has a very good job now and we’re very comfortable. Without me having to have self-flagellated at the altar of 50 hour weeks.

But you can change your career. What you decide at 18 does not have to be the rest of your life.

Some people can and do, some people can't and don't. Depends on their circumstances.

It went wrong for me last year in August when I had a baby and my company decided to use corona as an excuse to make me redundant whilst on maternity leave.

@MerryDecembermas

Because domestic work is not shared equally.

Women work, do child care and domestic chores.

Men work and use a variety of tactics to avoid sharing child care and domestic chores.

See: the mental load, feigned incompetence, sexism, the patriarchy.

Without kids in the mix, the lack of contribution from men is less noticable because the sum of labour required to run a house for 2 adults is minimal, relatively speaking. So even if the woman does it all, she can still perform highly at work and have a social life, go to the gym, etc.

Yep. A baby comes along and woman works like a donkey, until she's exhausted and reached cracking point. Back to work time comes along, she tells her husband or partner how worried she is because she's exhausted, he says why not go part time. Mum, desperate for anything to relief the relentless work and pressure and tiredness grabs opportunity with both hands.

Then realises when she's expected to work, contribute financially, do most of the childcare and housework because she 'only works part time' that she's been sold a pup.

@Lifeisabeach09

But you can change your career. What you decide at 18 does not have to be the rest of your life.

Some people can and do, some people can't and don't. Depends on their circumstances.

Yes So I'm agreeing with you.

[quote Falalalafishfingers]@Phineyj really? So why do so many women give up their careers?[/quote]
Because to succeed in corporate you have to work long hours and maybe travel. Who is going to raise the kids then? Also most mothers want to be fully involved in their kids lives. You can't do that working 60 Hours a week

As someone with a foot in SEN-land, you see this there very clearly. Parent-Carers are nearly always women, and schools, hospitals, social services and local authorities seem to expect them to be women. So for that reason (and having been one myself for a couple of years) I find it really bad taste to berate women for stepping up and doing the caring that is needed.

What we need to do is nudge, incentivise and generally shape policy so that society doesn’t run on this gendered expectations, and we need to lobby for that.

It would be great if there was a five point policy change charter to get behind and pressure our MPs for. Things like childcare subsidised at source across the board, tax breaks for employing parents part time, affordable SN specialist childcare centres in every town and so on.

I earned the same as DH but chose to a) take full maternity leave and b) reduce hours a little when I went back. I wanted to. DH wasnt fussed about shared parental leave and I was breast feeding so felt it was better me taking the time off. I developed a very close bond to the kids during maternity leave so I don't think its surprising I was the one who wanted to reduce hours.

THESE gendered expectations^