So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

It’s always women that say their men wouldn’t be allowed to work part time

That would surprise me nowadays

Dhs firm deffo let men and women go part time...i dont think it has to be baby related either

And career breaks

I had to resign to go traveling back in the 90’s

Here we go...

My sil is 44, rich and has NEVER had a job, lucky her! She has no trouble filling her day and has a great life.

Dp earns the money then gives it to me. Why would I feel oppressed?

I haven't worked in 8 years and bloody love it! I got to go shopping without ds today and have a long lunch with a friend. Going to the gym now.

My friend is married to the son of a billionaire and sometimes I have to block her on social media because her life is one long holiday.

I dont work, I was able to be a sahm with my sons, both in 30s now. I lunch, dressmake, walk my dogs for miles, spend time with friends and family etc....
I also volunteer for a small homeless charity, something I am so passionate about, being literally close to home.
I feel totally fulfilled!

My DSis married a very high earner and has never worked a day in her life.

My DH works 80 hours a week for a signficant amount of money, which allows me to be a SAHM and indulge myself, allow me to do all of my volunteering and my hobbies.

I work just a few hours a week in a job I love doing, I don’t have to work for financial reasons. I’ve accidentally ended up with a really high earning DH. I enjoy having lots of time to myself, I have hobbies, an amazing spa membership and an extremely fortunate to have some really good friends whom I’m able to see nearly every week.

My SIL is lucky enough to not have to work due to DB’s income. She has nice things, goes out for lots of lunches.

I'm a SAHM who has teenage children and is fortunate to be married to a high earner so I haven't needed to work since having kids. We do have a lifestyle that most people would find impressive.

I choose not to work. DH works really long shifts and odd hours so can be out of the house either days or nights, with each week being different. When the kids are grown I'll go and get some post-sahm work. Maybe in a shop, factory, cafe or something similar.

The funniest post was Monday morning when she started by posting “it’s going to be a long week, hoping the nanny isn’t late” followed by “anyone know a place I can get nails done, not happy with the place I’ve been going as I think they overcharge and wanting a day to pamper myself a bit.”

I feel lucky that I don't need to work. I am not getting any benefits because dh earns enough.

I'm lucky in that I didn't have to carry on working.

I am lucky enough not to work and stay at home with my son, as DH is a high earner. I feel extremely grateful for this every day, and try very hard not to take it for granted.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3764425-To-think-you-are-very-lucky-if-you-dont-have-to-work

I honestly challenge anybody to read the above quotes and argue that these women are the victims!

Oops

I dont mean it would surprise me if a woman was saying that...it would surprise me if the firm didn’t allow it

I tried working PT, but still had the same amount of work and not paid for it
I went back full time but it was always me that had to take time off when DS sick, take him to and from nursery (long drive), leave early to get him as was not part I'd the 'culture' at DH's work (20 years ago)
Was still crippled with guilt for not breastfeeding past 12 weeks, going back to work, twas early days of internet but other mothering sites were there, pre mumsnet.
When pg with DC2, gave in and decided to be a SAHM
14 years later, returned to fucked career, 2 years of stress to get back on track, now perform like my peers although still paid significantly less
Then my DH walked out. I fucked my career because he wouldn't share the load with the kids re work and I felt guilty for even then not being good enough, then returned to fund him leaving me for not getting enough 'attention'.
A story to warm the heart
Totally equal innit

Can only speak for myself. Choose to leave work because I enjoyed being at home with the children farvmore.

Far more

My partner and I met at uni. We did exactly the same job and for a while I earned slightly more than him.

We went into private sector and he earned slightly more than me. Then back to public sector and it evened up a bit. But I know I was being held back by a manager who had decided that once we got married, I was going to become a house wife (I had never mentioned this, I've never wanted to be a housewife) and she held me back from promotion in an annual review because of this assumption and the assumption I would soon be off having babies. She was a terrible person, this being only one example.

The reason I earn less is because I work part time. We do different jobs now and the job I do can be done part time but the job DH does would be more stressful to do part time and he doesn't cope well with stress. We agreed that this would happen once I got pregnant, also we didn't want to have kids in full time nursery care. DD went to nursery at 5 months and DS at 11 months.

I know from people I've worked with and people I was at uni with that there is still an ingrained belief that women from 25 upwards will want to have babies so it is pointless promoting them as they either will disappear, leaving the work force so therefore wasting the company's money prior to that point, or they will return and be distracted by the baby and therefore waste the company's money.

It puts pressure on men to not be a carer or primary carer and pressure for them to earn more to balance out loss or unequal earning ability experienced by the female partner.

So it's ingrained sexism really. Regardless of how hard a woman works, the way her body works will be a stumbling block.

Just talking to dh

Three men in the last year have taken shared parental leave, partly because they earn more than their wives

If they are off for more than a few months they get a very generous back to work bonus

And apparently he didnt get two weeks...he had one week

@MiladyBerserko

I tried working PT, but still had the same amount of work and not paid for it I went back full time but it was always me that had to take time off when DS sick, take him to and from nursery (long drive), leave early to get him as was not part I'd the 'culture' at DH's work (20 years ago) Was still crippled with guilt for not breastfeeding past 12 weeks, going back to work, twas early days of internet but other mothering sites were there, pre mumsnet. When pg with DC2, gave in and decided to be a SAHM 14 years later, returned to fucked career, 2 years of stress to get back on track, now perform like my peers although still paid significantly less Then my DH walked out. I fucked my career because he wouldn't share the load with the kids re work and I felt guilty for even then not being good enough, then returned to fund him leaving me for not getting enough 'attention'. A story to warm the heart Totally equal innit

This is a man problem though. This is a man not stepping up and supportive parenting.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

Why you do t consider it a joint cost if there are two wages? Housing and utilities are usually sHared costs as couple ,why isn’t child care

Ok so as you say 12k pa Net and one of £22k pa Net and the FT nursery bill is going to be 14kpa
Why aren’t they sharing the cost from the respective wages?
Why does it make the female wage the dispensible one?

OK, so there are three possibilities:

1. They pay for childcare. Family income will be 22+12-14=20.
2. She gives up work. Family income will be 22
3. He gives up work. Family income will be 12

Can you see why option 2 might seem better?

Whenever threads like this pop up it always seems apparent to me that women are damned whichever choice they make.

Because the system has been built by men, for men and it is rigged against women who have children.

Before I had children I genuinely believed I could have it all. I wasn’t remotely worried that I might ever have to take a hit on my career. DH is a good’un, we’ll be grand I thought.

I was so wrong. Even with the best intentions, even with a supportive DH who pulled his weight, once my employers put me on the ‘mummy track’, my fate was sealed. And oddly, the harder I fought for promotions and pay rises, etc, the more it seemed to piss them off.

After about five years of that, DH was way ahead of me in terms of seniority and salary.

I honestly don’t know what I could have done differently and I reject that it was somehow my ‘fault’ because I wanted to take all my maternity leave.

I honestly challenge anybody to read the above quotes and argue that these women are the victims!

I think this thread is about women's role in society in general. I don't think anyone will disagree that some people married to millionaires are happy.

This is a man problem though. This is a man not stepping up and supportive parenting

Well, exactly. But there are plenty of posters on here making the argument that it’s the OP’s fault for giving up her career. As if women should somehow be held accountable for men being shit partners and fathers.

Before I had children I genuinely believed I could have it all.

I grew up in a bit of a bubble & didn't even really experience sexism until I became a mother.

I do think things are changing slowly though, more men want to be hands on I think. Extended paternity leaves are more popular, BIL had 3 months paid. I also don't really know many parents who don't have the option to wfh/flexi so virtually all my friends work albeit most p/t.

@RUOKHon

Whenever threads like this pop up it always seems apparent to me that women are damned whichever choice they make.

Because the system has been built by men, for men and it is rigged against women who have children.

Before I had children I genuinely believed I could have it all. I wasn’t remotely worried that I might ever have to take a hit on my career. DH is a good’un, we’ll be grand I thought.

I was so wrong. Even with the best intentions, even with a supportive DH who pulled his weight, once my employers put me on the ‘mummy track’, my fate was sealed. And oddly, the harder I fought for promotions and pay rises, etc, the more it seemed to piss them off.

After about five years of that, DH was way ahead of me in terms of seniority and salary.

I honestly don’t know what I could have done differently and I reject that it was somehow my ‘fault’ because I wanted to take all my maternity leave.

Did you read my post above with the multitude of quotes from happy housewives?

I agree that women are often penalised for the possibility they may have children, but they do at least get a fair shot at being a happy SAHP. Of course this carries the risk that they may be left high and dry, but men don’t even get the chance to be a SAHP, and this isn’t just down to the patriarchy. Many women don’t want to share their mat leave.

Read the quotes from my above post and honestly try and imagine a man saying them.

GodofPhwoar

1. That’s a skewed selection of quotes: of course there are women who are charmed by the idea of being supported to not have to work. I can think of as many examples of threads peppered with quotes from women who are bored, lonely or feel alienated as a result of having stopped working. Not to mention those who have seen their standard of living fall by a factor of four after divorce.
2. Why wouldn’t they? Given that this is the default and the path of least resistance for most women, and the one society tells them is the natural way of things, is it surprising that at least a few of them go with the flow?

I mean I am not denying that some women embrace this approach but that doesn’t mean it’s the right or the natural thing to do...

@ToffeePennie So what about those of us who DID want to be child free but their husbands/partners wanted children? Because that’s my case, and I kept being passed over for promotion because I was “of childbearing age” and I was too young/naive to realise it was an issue

Why did you marry a man who wanted children if you didn’t? Plenty of childfree men out there.

I don’t think the patriarchy was ‘made’ by men. I think it’s more likely that it evolved that way over hundreds of years where work was mainly manual labour and contraception didn’t exist, meaning women were pregnant for much more of their life and suffered more injury.

I think it depends how far you have progressed in your career before you have children. I worked my way up to a director level position before I had my DC. I negotiated extended maternity leave and had excellent childcare in place for my DC. When I came back to work I was able to give proper focus and maintain a good work life balance and my career has continued to go from strength to strength. When I met my exH I out earned him by 300%. He closed the gap over the years but never caught up. I don't think he ever liked that tbh.

“1. They pay for childcare. Family income will be 22+12-14=20.

1. She gives up work. Family income will be 22
2. He gives up work. Family income will be 12

Can you see why option 2 might seem better?”

In the very short term yes. But no pension and no job in the long term. I did option 1 as I knew once the kids were at school we would be back to a decent amount of household income and I kept my pension going.

In your 20s and 30s most people have no interest in their pension. Wait until you are in your mid 50s and looking at only one pension to be shared or even worse just the state pension at 67. Suddenly the pension is very important. Men’s pensions don’t suffer. Funny enough in a divorce men will do anything to hide their pension as part of the marital assets as suddenly they don’t want to give up 50%. How will they find their new lifestyle 😂

If women stopped having children it would level the playing field entirely. We’re massively over populated. Not everyone of us has to spaff out a kid now. Especially not if it is keeping us as a gender from being treated as equals.

I grew up in a bit of a bubble & didn't even really experience sexism until I became a mother

Yes! I was so naive in that respect. Until I had children I was doing just as well as any of my male peers and I would have argued strongly that the gender imbalance was a thing of the past and women had achieved equality, etc, etc.

After I became a mother, it took a long time for me to accept that I was experiencing the self-same sexism that I always vehemently believed didn’t exist. It was like losing one’s faith or something.

Of course others will have different experiences and perspectives to mine. I think a massive contributing factor for me was just the industry I was in. It wasn’t remotely geared towards supporting working parents (despite appearing to be a trendy, right-on industry to outsiders, the truth is that the four main holding companies were all headed up by men who had various allegations of fraud and sexual assaults between them. It all trickles down...) Still, until I became a parent, I couldn’t have foreseen how badly they would treat me once I was one.

That was a bit of a rant!

He closed the gap over the years but never caught up. I don't think he ever liked that tbh.

I think a lot of men aren't comfortable when their partners out earn them & earn very well.