So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

If women stopped having children it would level the playing field entirely. We’re massively over populated. Not everyone of us has to spaff out a kid now. Especially not if it is keeping us as a gender from being treated as equals.

In western countries I think more & more women are having less dc & not having them at all.

I wholly agree. There is this perception that if you are a successful woman you must be a ball breaker and your man is emasculated. Such BS!

@thepeopleversuswork

GodofPhwoar

1. That’s a skewed selection of quotes: of course there are women who are charmed by the idea of being supported to not have to work. I can think of as many examples of threads peppered with quotes from women who are bored, lonely or feel alienated as a result of having stopped working. Not to mention those who have seen their standard of living fall by a factor of four after divorce.
2. Why wouldn’t they? Given that this is the default and the path of least resistance for most women, and the one society tells them is the natural way of things, is it surprising that at least a few of them go with the flow?

I mean I am not denying that some women embrace this approach but that doesn’t mean it’s the right or the natural thing to do...

But you’d literally never find a thread with the same number of men extolling the privileges of living a life of luxury funded by their hubby who works 80 hours a week. It is no doubt a privilege and the only reason people won’t accept it is because it makes women look bad.

Also, there are plenty of examples of happy couples and men who don’t screw their wives over and ensure that they are provided for when they divorce. The idea of the SAHP being left high and dry is equally as skewed a view.

My favourite is: “Why would I feel oppressed? DP earns the money and gives it to me.”

don’t think the patriarchy was ‘made’ by men. I I think it’s more likely that it evolved that way over hundreds of years where work was mainly manual labour and contraception didn’t exist, meaning women were pregnant for much more of their life and suffered more injury

But advancements in healthcare and access to childcare means it doesn’t have to be like that any more. Yet the status quo persists, because the people who benefit from it want to remain. Clue: the people who benefit aren’t women.

In the very short term yes. But no pension and no job in the long term. I did option 1 as I knew once the kids were at school we would be back to a decent amount of household income and I kept my pension going.

Exactly.
I don't think my first wage covered childcare if just looking at my salary as I refrained in a new industry. However I was still getting a pension. Now my wage is double.

And the ‘right or natural thing to do’ is whatever the fuck you and your partner want to do. I hate feminists who try and tell women how they should act or suggest that there is ‘righteous’ path.

It goes wrong for women when they are girls and see that the they women regularly make a point of saying money doesn’t mean happiness. Do you hear men making this point so often?
Girls need to see a career and money means independence and perhaps happiness. Rather than being told that can’t have it all.

@thepeopleversuswork

The pay gap starts with childbearing and child-rearing. The pay gap between childless women and men close to negligible. And women often do better than men at university in STEM subjects which often correlate with the highest-paying jobs.

The honest answer to "where does it go wrong for women" comes down to good old-fashioned sexism kicking in after children come along.

I cringe when I see this phrase wheeled out on here all the time that it "worked for our family" or "made sense for us" for the woman to stay at home. If the man genuinely has vastly superior earning potential it may make sense but in many cases this is doublespeak for "it made sense for him and I went along with it".

In plain English what this actually means is it never crossed his mind to scale back his work or miss out on a promotion in order to help take a more equal share of the domestic work and childcare and I didn't push things because I wanted not to rock the boat. And now here I am 10 years down the line with vastly lower earning potential and a part-time job with no career progression.

Thanks for this post. Made me think.

@RUOKHon

don’t think the patriarchy was ‘made’ by men. I I think it’s more likely that it evolved that way over hundreds of years where work was mainly manual labour and contraception didn’t exist, meaning women were pregnant for much more of their life and suffered more injury

But advancements in healthcare and access to childcare means it doesn’t have to be like that any more. Yet the status quo persists, because the people who benefit from it want to remain. Clue: the people who benefit aren’t women.

But again you’re wilfully ignoring all the women who want to be SAHP and do benefit from it. I just posted a massive list of women extolling their happiness at being SAHMs, and there are quite a few more in this thread. 🤷‍♀️

I don't feel like it has 'gone wrong' for me. I chose to split my focus between my children and earning money which to me feels like the best of both worlds.
Yes I could have carried on with my career and would no doubt be on a nice fat salary by now. The fact that I haven't is not a failure and do not feel I have gone wrong.

Yes I made a decision to trust my husband but to protect my financial position I insisted on being married before we had children as I think it's an important commitment to make when I gave up working full time.

I do think for some women it goes wrong when they make a commitment to children which is not shared by their partner who carries in as normal and whose life doesn't change, refusing to get married and insisting on a 50:50 financial co tribute on from the mother and primary cared of their children.

I mean why is suicide the main cause of death for men if we live in such a male utopia?

@BumbleBiscuit

If women stopped having children it would level the playing field entirely. We’re massively over populated. Not everyone of us has to spaff out a kid now. Especially not if it is keeping us as a gender from being treated as equals.

Said on MUMSNET

And when should we stop having children until?

I think the difference with myself and many others is that I don’t automatically side with somebody due to sharing their sex. My family and partner are my primary focus and if I felt it made more sense to be at home to boost our income as a family unit then I’d do it in the blink of an eye.

Women have progressively reported higher levels of unhappiness over the past few decades and I think it’s a bit like the child who tries to impress their parents and follows a path that isn’t necessarily what they want themselves. It’s easy to talk about relying on ‘a man’ but for most women that person isn’t just ‘a man’. It’s the person they picked to spend the rest of their life with and who they love and trust more than any other person on the planet, women included.

I attended a girls secondary school in a w/c area during the 90's. There was also another similar school but in a more affluent area a few miles away. My friend went to this school and the differences in attitude between the two state secondaries were huge.

My school didn't push post 16+ education or careers so much, the other school did almost on pain of death according to my friend Their teachers really pushed the girls whereas in my school they thought we'd all get pregnant or work in Tescos like our parents. most did

My teachers didn't bother with inspiring us or give us options. We were almost groomed by our school to become the 'servant class' for the mc school down the road. The girls at our school would become the nursery workers, check out girls & hairdressers to the mc girls at the selective secondary.

I was the one of only a small handful of girls who went to university which was very unusual for my school. My teacher told my dad that I was aiming too high. It's society expectations of us & the desire to keep certain people down and to know our place also limits women. It's also class based as well as well as sex based prejudices.

@Mumski45

I don't feel like it has 'gone wrong' for me. I chose to split my focus between my children and earning money which to me feels like the best of both worlds. Yes I could have carried on with my career and would no doubt be on a nice fat salary by now. The fact that I haven't is not a failure and do not feel I have gone wrong.

Yes I made a decision to trust my husband but to protect my financial position I insisted on being married before we had children as I think it's an important commitment to make when I gave up working full time.

I do think for some women it goes wrong when they make a commitment to children which is not shared by their partner who carries in as normal and whose life doesn't change, refusing to get married and insisting on a 50:50 financial co tribute on from the mother and primary cared of their children.

Exactly. You are a family you are not 2 individuals sharing a child/children. That is when you split. Right now you are a family and making family decisions you do together. The women that are with a partner that don't have that have a man problem and a relationship issue.

I want to be the main carer.

Similar situation to you. I didn't want to be the main carer as much as I wanted to be equal cater. I felt like I didn't have time for my own children.

Ultimately I felt like I couldn't get the balance I needed because my job was so demanding of my time/emotions/energy. I don't feel at all like I gave up my career so my husband's could flourish (although that's what's ended up happening). I was the one pushing for him to go back to work so that I could ease up in my work and spend more time with my kids.

I think the problem is (certainly for me) that the work culture here is so skewed. Half my family are from a scandi country. I can't think of a single female in my family over there who didn't go straight back to their career after maternity leave. But their work ethic is different. Shorter working hours and an expectation that people go home to their family at closing time, not out extra hours in.

Clicketyclick 21 has summed it up perfectly

Some of this is about choice because some women don’t want what is being talked about on this thread as if it’s the ‘best’ outcome. I didn’t go for promotion at work because I enjoyed the work done by the non-managers. I didn’t want to have to manage the team and deal with all the organisational stuff. I wanted time to follow my interests outside of work and not work the extra hours that comes with more responsibility. Equally I went part time after having a baby because I wanted to. I don’t think earning the most money as possible and going for promotions is the only way of being successful or happy in life. Good for anybody who does want that - we’re all different and I have no criticism towards anybody else - but not wanting that is fine too.

[quote Falalalafishfingers]@Phineyj really? So why do so many women give up their careers?[/quote]
I suspect they are with men who refuse to give up their career, or refuse to do 50% of childcare. Most won't even look up from the laptop until long into the evening, so what's the hope? That's if the conversation ever even comes up. Most women won't even bring up the topic for fear of 'scaring the man away'.

If you mention it, you'll get aggression back in your face.
Even if you don't, they'll say no.

You can keep looking for a man who isn't career-minded but wants to spend his time raising children. However, if you choose one if these, you'll be the primary earner and will have to support them in the event of divorce, which will almost certainly happen when a man shown to be unwilling to commit to work doesn't commit to a family.

You could find a man who is willing to balance both of your careers with childcare and sees children as a shared responsibility. Problem is I think there's only about 7 of them and they're all taken.

Honestly, having children is just too risky. The trade-off - you either don't work and are financially ruined, or you do work and pay vast childcare bills and are financially ruined - isn't worth it. Not being able to pay for housing and food is basically destitution.

Also women need to stop picking "nice" jobs that pay utter peanuts, like social workers and teaching assistants.

hav asked myself many times why roles in functions like HR and Communications and Marketing, all female dominated, are always the least well paid within big corporates. These roles are as important.

Feminisation of a role. If a profession becomes female dominated, the whole profession becomes less well paid, lower status. Teaching for example.

Pensions are incredibly important but the conversation needs to include 'is it more cost effective for me to stay home or work part time if one of the household bills is to replace the lost pension and carry on paying to my scheme' For some jobs the hpusehold will still be better off with someone at home. For others it will tip the balance. Lots of low paid people have a pension that is 8% of their low salary including their employee contribution.

References and continuity of skills are also important but they dont require FT work to fullfill.

hav asked myself many times why roles in functions like HR and Communications and Marketing, all female dominated, are always the least well paid within big corporates. These roles are as important.

That’s just in the private sector though. In the public sector you are paid according to your grade regardless of work area or sex.

I wouldn’t necessarily say you’ve failed if you become a hairdresser either though. I don’t think we should go down that route.

It’s only a problem IMO if you’re not given the chance to pursue your ambitions. My brother was on a six figure salary and was always unhappy, never at home etc. Always drinking to deal with the stress. In the end he changed to a middle management job and is much happier on £50k.

I think one problem is that some women base their judgement on how they think men’s lives are, which isn’t actually the reality as many men hide their stress from their loved ones - and then sometimes break down and kill themselves when it becomes unbearable.

I certainly worked with a lot of stressed men when I was in sales, many of whom it seemed were mainly doing it to put their children through private education.

@Duanphen

Also women need to stop picking "nice" jobs that pay utter peanuts, like social workers and teaching assistants.

I would not describe social work as a “nice” job.