So where does it go wrong for women?

[Falalalafishfingers]

I'm sure this has been asked a 1009 times!
Read so many times in threads that it makes more sense for woman to give up work/ cut hours as dh/dp earns so much more. This suggests that men are already earning more pre-children?
So where does it go wrong? My guess is university.

That last paragraph is quite possibly the longest sentence I’ve typed on mumsnet! 😂

I think it goes wrong so to speak when kids come along - women tend to be less risk averse once they have kids. Not trying to be stereotypical, just saw it with a lot of friends - "oh I can't go for that job, promotion, etc, what about the kids?". I don't think men tend to think like that.

@MillieEpple

GodOfPhwoar - its interesting because yws on one hand the person in the office has proved their work ethic and gained experience over that 18 months and the company should value that. But the woman 'swanning off' may well have already proved her work ethic over many years, already have that experience as she has managed plenty of projects and now has new skilks which might be relevant to the next level but currently that is rarely valued. I came back from my 8 month mat leave much better at managung distractions and dealing with conflict. I have two (male examples) ones career was stagnating so he asked for a sabatical. Went off, learned to sail and 6 months later came back and was promoted very quickly after a break. Gave him a different way of dealing with things in work. Another man took a 3 month break to drive a car in some long distance car race thing. He also got promoted swifly after his return.

That’s a very good point. I guess I was talking more about the ‘entitlement’ some people feel to not lose any eligibility whilst off.

@GreekOddess

I earned more than dh until we hit 30. At 30 we were both pissed off with our meagre earnings and asked for a rise. Dh got his pay rise. Mine was approved by my immediate line manager but blocked at 2 levels above. Dh handled his pay rise request by saying pay me what I'm worth or I'm fucking out of here. I did a market rate analysis with stats and a business proposal demonstrating how I could add even more value .

I then decided to get pregnant instead.

Yes. It’s just not true that women don’t ask for pay rises as often as men.

hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them#:~:text=Instead%2C%20we%20found%20that%2C%20holding%20background%20factors%20constant%2C,difference%2C%20over%20a%20lifetime%20it%20really%20adds%20up.
(Harvard Business Review article)

Most women do not want to share paternity leave and would not want their partners being the SAHP. We can come up with lots of excuses as follows:-
He earns more than me (lots of men don’t)
My job is dull (I think most men could say the same);
Nursery fees take all of my salary (50% wouldn’t);
Etc

Let’s stop playing the victim and be honest - we like the current situation.

I have been wondering this recently. Of my six close friends at university with children, one is full time (with husband as SAHD), two work 4 days per week, one works 3 days a week, one works 2 days a week and one is a SAHM. This was a Russell Group university and all of us had careers pre children - law, accountancy, events and teaching. Interestingly, it is the teachers who have dropped the most hours due to the cost of childcare.

I'm one of the ones working 4 days and am currently working the equivalent of FT hours each week and was going to ask for a pay rise to reflect working compressed hours, however lockdown 3 and homeschooling has meant that I don't feel I can do this as I'm being increasingly perceived as unreliable by my employer (while DH who does 50% of the homeschooling is viewed as super dad by his..)

@Coffeeandcocopops
Let’s stop playing the victim and be honest - we like the current situation.

Bullshit.
I’ve already said if my earnings could match my husbands I would happily go to work and have him be a SAHD.
Generalising everyone is just wrong. Many many women dislike the current status quo but are powerless to change it.

Many many women dislike the current status quo but are powerless to change it

Choosing to be children levels the playing field! They are not powerless they just want children more than they want freedom and success!

A few people have alluded to it but one very simple reason why women are more likely to be the ones who stay at home or go part time is that for the most part, they are the ones who attach value to being at home with children and who baulk at small children spending lots of time in childcare. The vast majority of men I know, even the most attached and engaged with their families simply don't think that deeply about, don't agonise over it, don't necessarily see it as a problem (or their problem) to solve.

childfree*

I’ve already said if my earnings could match my husbands I would happily go to work and have him be a SAHD

We’d probably have shared if at all possible

But dh got two weeks paternal leave, at the time we were very grateful to his firm for letting him spread it out over more than two weeks as i was in the maternity home for nearly a week.

And there was no chance of him going part time

@OppsUpsSide

I earnt more when DC were first born, but I was happy to be main carer, so went part time.

In a nutshell this is it

My job is dull (I think most men could say the same);

I do find the narrative that men who are workaholics, thrive in their high stress role etc are seen as a good thing odd. Don't some DHs burnout also or despise the commute?

**And there was no chance of him going part time

When i asked for a payrise i was told that my employer had to balance the books across the organisation and that some of the men were supoorting a family so ... then there was a meaningful silence..

A year later i was asked if my husband had a payrise that year as not everyone had another source of income.

This was about 20 years ago.

they are the ones who attach value to being at home with children and who baulk at small children spending lots of time in childcare

Is this true? My mum was a SAHM but we had a nanny, cleaner etc & that was the norm in my parents circle. The few SAHMs I know also use childcare. I used childcare for my older dc when on subsequent mat leaves.

@Coffeeandcocopops couldn’t agree more! Once SPL becomes the norm, it pushes for equality alongside other aspects be it on domestic chores, financial contribution and more generally in society that fathers have an equal input into raising their child.

In a nutshell women are to blame for their position.

@BumbleBiscuit

Many many women dislike the current status quo but are powerless to change it

Choosing to be children levels the playing field! They are not powerless they just want children more than they want freedom and success!

Freedom and success? Wtf Maybe some women finding having children as a success. Especially if it was difficult to conceive etc

We're one of the non-stereotypical households - I went back to work when DD was 5 months old and DH took shared parental leave for 7 months, then gave up his job to be SAHD.

It works for us, but surprises others. I live my job, he hated his. I earn double what he did - he was on min wage - so we can survive on just my wage but not on just his (I got statutory maternity pay so we had to save in advance for me to have 5 months on mat leave).

DD is now 2, and DH has reassessed what he really wants to do as a career, and will be starting uni in September to retrain for a much higher paid role. He'd probably never have done it if he hadn't taken this time out if work with DD.

@BumbleBiscuit
So what about those of us who DID want to be child free but their husbands/partners wanted children?
Because that’s my case, and I kept being passed over for promotion because I was “of childbearing age” and I was too young/naive to realise it was an issue.

@Coffeeandcocopops

**And there was no chance of him going part time

There wasn’t

20 plus years ago most firms didnt do this

We both wanted to go part time...he couldn’t

A few people have alluded to it but one very simple reason why women are more likely to be the ones who stay at home or go part time is that for the most part, they are the ones who attach value to being at home with children and who baulk at small children spending lots of time in childcare. The vast majority of men I know, even the most attached and engaged with their families simply don't think that deeply about, don't agonise over it, don't necessarily see it as a problem

I agree. When I was pregnant with my first son I worked four days a week and I then reduced that to three after he was born because I didn’t want him in childcare four days a week. After our second son came along I reduced my hours even more to two days a week.

I wanted to be at home with/for my children as much as possible. When I was young my mom worked full time and when I look back on my childhood it upsets me how little a part of it she was - I don’t have many memories with her in my childhood yet I have plenty of memories of all the fun things I did with the childminder though.

I just wanted differently for my children. My husband’s mum also worked full time when he was a child and he felt like he’d missed out too, hence why we were both happy for me to reduce my hours so I could spend more time with the children.

The thing is, for all this talk of it ‘going wrong’ and husbands shagging the secretary, there seem to be loads of women who are perfectly happy staying at home. It’s almost like it’s the uncomfortable truth nobody wants to admit.

Aside from the three linked studies there is also lots of anecdotal evidence from this website alone. There was a long thread on here the other week called something like ‘Can a Housewife be a Feminist’ and there were loads of quotes from happy housewives. I think the thread was closed down but I may be able to dig out the original thread the quotes were lifted from - something like ‘You’re lucky if you don’t work’.

20 years ago was very different to today. I started work in 1987 and women left work completely to have children. Now we don’t have too.

It’s always women that say their men wouldn’t be allowed to work part time. Yet women do work part time. We employ women in very senior positions who work part time. We also employ men in senior positions that could work part time but choose not too.