To think teachers should be moved up vaccination list..

[Ltdannygreen]

I’m not a teacher just to clarify, but I can’t be the only one who think teachers should be a priority on the vaccination list, not just so kids can get back to school but many are currently working to teach the children of key workers who are on the frontline everyday who still pose a risk. I’m aware that elderly are important, but so are our teachers.

They are currently plotting to have a priority keyworker list and teachers will be part of that list.

How and when they are going to slot that in place I don't think they have decided yet

The key worker priorities are currently due to come in phase 2, which is after groups 1-9 (all over-50s, CEV and at risk, 99% of deaths). But I wouldn’t be surprised if they started some people by profession after group 4 (all over 70s, CEV, healthcare, 88% of deaths). Partly because, as here, there will be clamouring to do so. Plus the numbers - groups 1-4 are 15m people and 5-9 are 17m.

@JogOnTony

This has to be about more than death statistics though. It has to

It's not though? It's about the NHS and reducing the number of people in hospitals and saving lives. That is absolutely the most important thing right now.

I get that.

I do.

Didn't like your statement but I get it. As i say we are all looking through a different lens.

This has to be about more than death statistics though. It has to.

Which criteria are you thinking should be applied instead/as well and with what weighting?

They are currently plotting to have a priority keyworker list and teachers will be part of that list

The official word from JCVI is that those in certain occupations will be top priority in phase two

The occupations under consideration are emergency services, military and others in key roles in pandemic response, criminal justice system (including prison inmates and staff), teachers, social workers, other residential unit residents and staff

Not sure if transport and critical national infrastructure are also under consideration - after all, everything stops working if the national grid hiccups

When the vaccine was first coming out, health care staff were supposed to go first. Then the govt changed its mind and put them way down the list.

Now the hospitals are full to bursting and extremely short of staff because they've caught it. And suddenly hospital staff are joint top of the list again. The usual incompetence then.

Both priorities can be addressed. Those at risk of dying, and those who need to be available to nurse them. Same will eventually apply to schools. If the govt suddenly finds they can't keep them open due to staff absence, they'll quietly move school staff up the list. Too late.

@JogOnTony

I could understand the argument if we knew the vaccine prevented transmission of Covid. But we don't.

Therefore whether a teacher is vaccinated or not, if the vaccine doesn't actually stop them being able to get and pass on Covid, it won't make any difference to school openings, closures, transmission to family members etc...

The whole point right now is getting the strain off the NHS. The only way to do that is to vaccinate those people most likely to need a hospital. It won't stop them getting Covid, but it will stop them needing treatment for it.

It's not about your level of exposure. It's about how severe your symptoms are statistically likely to be should you get it. No matter what your profession, teacher, police, shop worker, bus driver etc... if you are not in a vulnerable category then you are not statistically likely to get Covid severely enough to require hospital treatment. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that personally.

Don't be flippant. It's not about being difficult to understand.

It's about people being more affected by what they see day to day than statistics. Which sounds awful.

For example....i have a grandparent in a care home who I haven't seen for a year. I miss her dreadfully.

But out of her and my vulnerable weans I haven't seen in person in school since December who am I most worried about? Who propels me to want things to change? Who do I think is in safer hands?

@BoomBoomsCousin

This has to be about more than death statistics though. It has to.

Which criteria are you thinking should be applied instead/as well and with what weighting?

Honestly?

I think the mental health statistics and the impact of certain professions need to have some weight here.

We vaccinate the elderly. That takes months. What happens in the mean time elsewhere?

As a teacher, I’m in my early 20s and in good health, not sure how I can justify getting it earlier. If I get it I’m probably not going to be on a ventilator neither are my KS1 class. The one exception I can see is those in special schools bc you’ve got such vulnerable children there.
Echoing early posts I’ll be sitting in an empty room teaching online till February, the amazing TAs are the ones in our school working with key worker children. It would be so wrong to vaccinate teachers without support staff.

@RancidOldHag

They are currently plotting to have a priority keyworker list and teachers will be part of that list

The official word from JCVI is that those in certain occupations will be top priority in phase two

The occupations under consideration are emergency services, military and others in key roles in pandemic response, criminal justice system (including prison inmates and staff), teachers, social workers, other residential unit residents and staff

Not sure if transport and critical national infrastructure are also under consideration - after all, everything stops working if the national grid hiccups

Bus drivers definitely need to be on that list.

We have sadly lost to covid to many bus drivers already.

@Ltdannygreen

There is also little evidence of the elderly or vulnerable being more likely to die.

Have you seen the data related about who is dying ?
There is also little evidence of the elderly or vulnerable being more likely to die.

static.ons.gov.uk/datasets/1e913c15-b4c9-4710-aab6-6c62a52182fd/weekly-deaths-age-sex-covid-19-v12-filtered-2021-01-11T23-35-36Z.xlsx

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/what-makes-you-at-risk-from-coronavirus

www.phc.ox.ac.uk/news/new-risk-model-estimates-likelihood-of-death-or-hospitalisation-from-covid-19

The transmission point is really important. If we get evidence soon that in fact the vaccine does reduce transmission (I don’t know how many vaccines need to be given to start to measure that), then it would change things quite considerably. In that scenario teachers (and supermarket workers, etc) ought to be higher up the list to help break the chains of transmission. But that’s a total switch from judging priority by impact of having the virus to likelihood of contracting it.

Fwiw, I teach and I don't think we should be moved up.
I just think there has to be more consideration than the death statistics (directly from covid I might add).

If you've got a CEV person shielding, they're far less likely to catch the disease than a young, fit and healthy teacher exposing themselves daily. Yes they may be less likely to get severely ill, but it's a numbers game as if you have 10 teachers catching it to compared to 1 CEV, there's a fair chance 1 of those teachers could get severely ill and need hospital treatment.
Yes we want to take pressure off the NHS but actually if you allow this virus to run rampant amongst front line (albeit fit and healthy) workers, its going to be overwhelmed anyway by the small proportion but essentially high numbers of the fit and healthy needing hospital treatment.
So in my opinion, yes front line workers such as teachers should be getting the vaccine. They are doing critical work and there are a huge amount of them exposing themselves daily.

What happens in the mean time elsewhere?

What happens is those elderly take up less hospital beds and resources meaning the strain on the NHS begins to lift, meaning we can begin to slowly lift restrictions which have been put in place to stop it becoming overwhelmed which is obviously better for everyone and exactly why they've said the way this is being done is the fastest way to achieve some normality again.

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

I get a bus daily and while they are behind a screen I have yet to see one in a mask.

I might get flamed for this but might the stats be due to the demographic of (usual) bus drivers?

@JogOnTony

This has to be about more than death statistics though. It has to

It's not though? It's about the NHS and reducing the number of people in hospitals and saving lives. That is absolutely the most important thing right now.

Exactly. It’s about having a bed if I have a car accident so that they can save my life. Or that if I try to commit suicide because I can’t take anymore lockdown rules ... there is a bed for me. Yes it’s about saving lives ... but giving it to a 20yo before a 80 yo wouldn’t save lives nor help at all

@JogOnTony

What happens in the mean time elsewhere?

What happens is those elderly take up less hospital beds and resources meaning the strain on the NHS begins to lift, meaning we can begin to slowly lift restrictions which have been put in place to stop it becoming overwhelmed which is obviously better for everyone and exactly why they've said the way this is being done is the fastest way to achieve some normality again.

But your focus is still on the elderly in hospital beds. As I've said several times over now, we are all looking through different lenses.

@Wheresmykimchi

I dont quite see why you're telling me to behave. You are the one who is stating that it was wrong to say that the elderly and vulnerable were more likely to die

This amounts to accusing everyone who spoke on the record today of lying about who is dying. Other posters have also highlighted the official estimates of proportion of deaths that will be prevented by adhering to the current priority list

I'd displace the 65 plus, if otherwise healthy

That also displaces all the CV who are the category below the 65+

I would say they should be priority 3. Frontline healthcare should be a higher priority as they are physically handling known Covid positive patients. But they should definitely be priority 3

@Wheresmykimchi I get your point about there being broader worries. But at this point I don’t think that vaccinating teachers (which I hope we’re all using as shorthand for school staff) would actually get schools open quicker. It would presumably make the unions happier, but the government have made a song and dance about the closures being about transmission.

[quote RancidOldHag]@Wheresmykimchi

I dont quite see why you're telling me to behave. You are the one who is stating that it was wrong to say that the elderly and vulnerable were more likely to die

This amounts to accusing everyone who spoke on the record today of lying about who is dying. Other posters have also highlighted the official estimates of proportion of deaths that will be prevented by adhering to the current priority list

I'd displace the 65 plus, if otherwise healthy

That also displaces all the CV who are the category below the 65+[/quote]
Because you're implying I think everything is lying which is ridiculous. I didn't say it was wrong. I said there is little evidence to suggest you are more likely to die from covid as the elderly. Just that more elderly die with covid cited . That doesn't mean anyone is lying. Everyone just sees it differently.

I can't make sense of your second point at all. I said that healthy 65 plus should be displaced so you think I should displace clinically vulnerable below 65

But your focus is still on the elderly in hospital beds

I really don't get what your point is?

My focus is on whoever is taking up hospital beds and resources and therefore placing massive strain on the NHS which results in the restrictions we currently have, my focus is on reducing that number so that said restrictions can begin to be eased. It so happens in this case that it isn't, in the main, healthy fit teachers taking up hospital beds, but elderly or those in other vulnerable categories.

[quote Justcallmecaptainobvious]@Wheresmykimchi I get your point about there being broader worries. But at this point I don’t think that vaccinating teachers (which I hope we’re all using as shorthand for school staff) would actually get schools open quicker. It would presumably make the unions happier, but the government have made a song and dance about the closures being about transmission.[/quote]
Couldn't give an arse about unions.

I care about my vulnerable weans and my vulnerable teaching staff .

@LickEmbysmiling it's hardly barbaric and a 'viral load of covid'
Try swapping with someone in A&E - I think you'll find a mask little comfort when you know you're in a room with people with covid symptoms and you can't send them home like any little darlings with a cough.

For that matter in a supermarket with no ventilation where people cough and sneeze all day long - mask or no mask. You're sitting there for 40 hours with all those droplets from thousands of people in the air.

Besides, out of all of those jobs teachers now have the lowest number of children they've had for a long time and half are working from home (at our school at least)

^Honestly?

I think the mental health statistics and the impact of certain professions need to have some weight here.

We vaccinate the elderly. That takes months. What happens in the mean time elsewhere?

Which statistics suggest teachers' mental health is more at risk from having to wait for a vaccine than other people's mental health?