To think teachers should be moved up vaccination list..

[Ltdannygreen]

I’m not a teacher just to clarify, but I can’t be the only one who think teachers should be a priority on the vaccination list, not just so kids can get back to school but many are currently working to teach the children of key workers who are on the frontline everyday who still pose a risk. I’m aware that elderly are important, but so are our teachers.

Also regarding special school,s and the teachers that work in them , depending on what type of school it is there might be an awful lot of very clinically vulnerable pupils in them so it makes sense these teachers are priority not just for themselves but for their pupils ,the school my child may go to next September is for children with severe learning disabilities and for children with profound and multiple learning disabilities.,my son thankfully is healthy but lots of those children are tube fed and on oxygen etc

I didn't say vulnerable people weren't being called up! I'm saying wfh NHS are getting appointments.

I know it sounds ridiculous to argue with NHS staff getting vaccinated! It sounds intuitively right, but if you examine it, it's illogical.

@x2boys

Also regarding special school,s and the teachers that work in them , depending on what type of school it is there might be an awful lot of very clinically vulnerable pupils in them so it makes sense these teachers are priority not just for themselves but for their pupils ,the school my child may go to next September is for children with severe learning disabilities and for children with profound and multiple learning disabilities.,my son thankfully is healthy but lots of those children are tube fed and on oxygen etc

Unless the vaccine stops transmission, it would actually make more sense to vaccinate the vulnerable pupils.

If it doesn't prevent you from passing Covid on, the fact the teacher is vaccinated or not is irrelevant?

@napody

I didn't say vulnerable people weren't being called up! I'm saying wfh NHS are getting appointments.

I know it sounds ridiculous to argue with NHS staff getting vaccinated! It sounds intuitively right, but if you examine it, it's illogical.

As in NHS staff WFH being vaccinated is illlogical? I don’t know of many positions in the NHS that can be done full time long term at home; there isn’t the IT infrastructure to support it, for a start. Anyone that currently is, wont be able to forever; It just won’t work.

To put it in a very Spock-like way, one ICU bed is 'worth' more than one member of payroll staff at any one moment. As in: it avoids more death! The strategy of prioritising the vulnerable was solid. I have not seen a solid justification for sticking wfh NHS above them, have you?

BTW no personal beef: my grandmother has had the vaccine purely due to postcode lottery. Noone else in my family is vulnerable, and I don't have a vendetta against NHS payroll staff either :D

But why are teachers more important than the Tesco check out staff? Or the police? Or bus drivers? Not sure how you can choose one career over another tbh.

Are you actually saying you think there's an immediate risk that NHS payroll will collapse because of large numbers of synchronised but isolated cases of covid, and the impossibility of hiring payroll staff from.....any other industry?

I’ve literally just posted one; vulnerable NHS staff WFH can’t do it forever. They’ll have to go back to work eventually, and lots of staff even if not frontline are based on or near wards, and are at risk of Covid. Hence working from home. Having worked in the NHS, I know lots of people who have tried to WFH when self isolating for example and it’s been impossible, can’t get on any systems, can’t access any databases etc. It’s a nightmare. Those staff are vital for things to run smoothly, so those staff yes vaccinate and they can go back to work properly.

@napody

Are you actually saying you think there's an immediate risk that NHS payroll will collapse because of large numbers of synchronised but isolated cases of covid, and the impossibility of hiring payroll staff from.....any other industry?

Is this to me? What are you on about?

I've thought and thought about this, I've spent a long time pondering. And after everything I still think it's right to vaccinate the most vulnerable first, the ones who are most likely to end up in hospital. Because they will be the patients who block beds and then die [bluntly]. The more hospital beds that are free the lower the death rate.

Yes I think that teachers should come after frontline NHS staff, care home staff and paramedics alongside the police, social workers and prison staff. Vaccinating teachers benefits the whole of society not just the teaches themselves.

Yes OrangeSlices and PuttyIn. I am trying to talk you through weighing up the risks.

Yes, everyone should be vaccinated eventually. Yes, NHS backroom staff are important and should probably be near the top of priority occupations. No, NHS backroom services are unlikely to grind to such a halt as to lead to mass death. Yes, delaying elderly and vulnerable from their vaccinations could overwhelm ICU and lead to mass death.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

I've thought and thought about this, I've spent a long time pondering. And after everything I still think it's right to vaccinate the most vulnerable first, the ones who are most likely to end up in hospital. Because they will be the patients who block beds and then die [bluntly]. The more hospital beds that are free the lower the death rate.

Yup.

I am 70 and shielding. I think teachers should be prioritised. I have the option to stay safe at home, they do not, and if they are vaccinated it will facilitate getting children back into education. Ex colleagues in a community mental health team are getting their vaccine now as they work for NHS. They are not at greater risk than teachers as far as I can tell.

I’d hazard an educated guess that the frontline versus back office debate goes something like: frontline staff need to be vaccinated. Many key non-frontline staff need to be vaccinated. A fair number of back office staff don’t really need to be vaccinated at this point. But the admin involved in identifying those different groups is so vast that the system just can’t cope. Similarly, they should probably be vaccinating a 75 year old with certain conditions before an 82 year old without them , but we have to cut the population in to broad groups, it’s the only way the system can deliver.

Yes, that had occurred to me too, but if they can arrange for non frontline staff to be 'on standby for spare vaccine' (very sensible) in some regions, why not in all? It shouldn't be that hard to separate nurses and doctors (and a few key others obvs) from everyone else? Simpler than weighing up elderly individuals with varying combinations of conditions, anyway...

The reason it is so high-stakes is because NHS is before vulnerable, and there are millions of NHS workers. If it were vulnerable first, as it should be, then occupations (with NHS at the top), exact job role would be less crucial.

Yes I think that teachers should come after frontline NHS staff, care home staff and paramedics alongside the police, social workers and prison staff. Vaccinating teachers benefits the whole of society not just the teaches themselves.

No it really doesn't.

Because the vulnerable who haven't been vaccinated, in favour of those people you list, will still be getting seriously ill and taking up hospital beds. The NHS will still be overwhelmed.

Have you been asleep since March, or have you just failed to pick up on the fact that these restrictions are about NOT OVERWHELMING THE NHS. They're not about still in people from getting Ill.

@x2boys

Also regarding special school,s and the teachers that work in them , depending on what type of school it is there might be an awful lot of very clinically vulnerable pupils in them so it makes sense these teachers are priority not just for themselves but for their pupils ,the school my child may go to next September is for children with severe learning disabilities and for children with profound and multiple learning disabilities.,my son thankfully is healthy but lots of those children are tube fed and on oxygen etc

Definitely agree with you.

A friend has only recently been allowed by management at her school to wear a mask. The banned staff wearing them!

The kids should works with have various special needs. Body fluids are quite often involved. One boy spits at staff regularly.

Staff need the jab to protect themselves and help stop staff shortages. Also to help protect the vulnerable children at the school.

For all those saying Teachers after frontline staff and before Clinically extremely vulnerable

Really?????

So young, healthy people in mostly the 20-40 age range who has a very small chance of dying, above CEV who a have huge risks of dying?

Really?
Wow!!!!

Anyway, even if that was to happen, which it wont...
Lockdown would be for even longer because deaths would remain high untill CEV and Elderly were vaccinated !

So completely pointless!
They need to be in the Q and number 10

@napody

Are you actually saying you think there's an immediate risk that NHS payroll will collapse because of large numbers of synchronised but isolated cases of covid, and the impossibility of hiring payroll staff from.....any other industry?

Surely the numbers of staff you are talking about really make barely a dent in the vaccination program. So the hassle of deciding who gets the jab and who doesn't isn't worth it.

Some admin staff are still very patient facing and some aren't. I would guess the ones that aren't or wfh are few in number.

@CallmeAngelina backroom NHS are being vaccinated for a number of reasons. Many offices are a mixture of clinical and non clinical staff together, its not that finance staff are working with patients but they are working with staff who are. On top of that many finance and other corporate staff have and will be again redeployed within wards and other clinical areas as well as working within the vaccine hubs helping to organise people coming in for vaccines. Anyone who has been for their vaccine will have seen just how many staff are required to make it work.

I am not sure people not involved in the NHS understand the role of finance staff, its not like normal accountants who just sit in an office with other accountants all day, frontline staff wouldn't be able to do their role without them (same for occ health and many other non clinical roles). They are not fully WFH roles either.

Some acute trusts are running with approx 10% sickness rate right now, that is hundreds of staff in just one organisation. It is quite horrific in the hospitals and is likely to get worse over the next couple of weeks.

In addition to this a previous poster has already mentioned that one of the targets is to ensure that no vaccine is wasted. Since vaccinations began in my trust there has not been any wastage at all as staff are able to attend short notice appointments.

I dont expect everyone to understand as they wouldn't if they haven't worked within the same services as some of the non clinical staff but I genuinely believe all NHS staff need to be vaccinated ASAP.

@napody

Yes OrangeSlices and PuttyIn. I am trying to talk you through weighing up the risks.

Yes, everyone should be vaccinated eventually. Yes, NHS backroom staff are important and should probably be near the top of priority occupations. No, NHS backroom services are unlikely to grind to such a halt as to lead to mass death. Yes, delaying elderly and vulnerable from their vaccinations could overwhelm ICU and lead to mass death.

I never said the NHS would grind to a halt. I said some NHS staff are working at home which isn’t sustainable given the shitshow of the NHS IT infrastructure is appalling. So yes, they need to get back to work eventually. They also work in hospitals often on wards, next to and with clinical staff.

Some of those staff will also meet criteria of vulnerability, like those who don’t work in the NHS and are being vaccinated. Also worth remembering the more people in hospitals vaccinated the more protected the vulnerable are.

It’s not a black and white question. I do think we need to look at how else we can protect teachers - keeping as many children at home as possible. The definition of keyworker has been stretched and stretched to the point of idiocy frankly.

I should have added that overall the frontline staff are being asked to go in for their vaccines first, then other clinical then non clinical. Non clinical staff who have had their vaccines already are filling appointments that wouldn't otherwise be filled. NHS non clinical staff are also working all hours to ensure it is possible that anyone is able to have the vaccine, it is a huge operation and we cannot manage with continued huge sickness levels (double the norm at this time of year).

I know staff WFH for NHS organisations who haven't been in the office since March who are getting vaccinated next week. Seems there would have been a better way of allocating this, teachers should be before them.

@napody all the additional medical equipment required, vacvine equipment, setting up new wards for additional covid patients, setting up vaccine hubs is all done by non patient facing staff such as finance, occupational health, estates. Pretty important roles. If large numbers are off sick if is a nightmare plus the fact they will have to meet with clinical staff to put a lot of this in place.