Group on FB

[UnshakenNeedsStirring]

So I joined a group of women on FB. To support each other during lockdown and generally have a chat and a nice time online. Ater a week or so the admin changed a photo of the group to one with 5 women holding hands, the pic was taken from back, so no faces. IT was a painting or so from 50's I think or could've been done in retro style. I pointed out that the picture was not inclusive as it was only showing white women and didn't have other women of colour or ethnic minorities. I got a lot of abuse back. Was I wrong? I am a bit shocked and disheartened that in 2021 I had to raise this and no one really was bothered and nearly all the women asked me to shut up and not talk about it

@PrivateHall thank you. Better late than never x

Not everything has to or can include everyone. There are some ethnic minorities that mostly invisible and not many people give a shit.
If you don’t like the profile picture, or the attitude. Leave.

I support you OP. Why do people refuse to improve something when it's so easy to do?

@MartiniDry it does not need to be splashed across billboards for it to have any significance, you may find it trivial but to people who are oppressed and excluded it is hurtful.
Real racial discrimination fights need to start at the personal level, and rightly this poster did just that.
Good for her!

Think about it, what if that was a family member of yours or a close friend, would you dismiss it as trivial? Probably not, because you will see the effects it has on them.

I get irritated with tokenism, for example on Richard Osman's House of Games, every week there are 4 players, one of whom is ethnic minority. It seems odd and kind of forced. 25% of the country are not ethnic minority.
BUT, I don't think you're being unreasonable OP, if you are a POC yourself, to ask if they could find a more inclusive picture, as the picture is supposed to represent the people in the group. The admin choosing the photo unthinkingly isn't necessarily racist, but refusing to even listen to your polite request is small-minded and petty, and I'm not surprised that it made you feel excluded.

@UnshakenNeedsStirring - apologies, I haven't read the full thread.

I do find the responses on this thread interesting.

I also wonder what those responses would have been like, had you mentioned in your OP that you are not White (apologies if you do mention upthread!) and that you did not feel included, hence your request to the Admin. As it is, people are generally shooting you down and saying invalidating your view.

It's that type of micro aggression - clearly evidenced in posts like this 'enlightened' MN thread - that show casual racism is alive and well.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want a photo to be a bit more diverse. It doesn't have to represent everyone, but more than one demographic is good. It makes people feel more welcome.
They don't HAVE to change the photo, but they could at least acknowledge the point that has been made and consider what they want to do.
I'm surprised at some of the comments here.

So you have no problem that the group excludes men but you have a problem that they used a picture of only white hands?

It was a womans group though, not a man's group. I kind of see where you are coming from with that but would you advise women to use traditional mens barber shops? Should we do away with barber shops now then because they aren't inclusive of women?
The point is, this isnt a gender argument. It's about a person feeling left out due to her colour and a group of people of a different colour silencing her.
She only asked for the pic to be more inclusive, is that too much to ask? She didnt deserve to be abused for making such a reasonable request.

Not everything has to or can include everyone.

Of course not, but if a group is inclusive and open to a group of women from different backgrounds and you’re choosing a photo of a group of women it makes sense to choose a photo showing a diverse group of women. I can’t see how anybody can fail to see how a photo showing a wider demographic than just white women isn’t making the group appear more welcoming and inclusive to everyone, even those who may not be represented.

It’s sort of like if I open a pet shop selling food for a range animals and choose to advertise with a photo of 5 cats because it’s impossible to find a photo containing every single type of pet I cater for. If my photo is only of cats then anybody with another pet isn’t likely to think I’m right for them and will probably not feel like I’ve made any effort to cater to their needs. If I choose a photo showing several different types of pet (Eg: cat, parrot, hamster, tortoise and rabbit) then it’s clearer that my produce will cover a range of pets and even if I’ve not specifically shown a gerbil someone with a gerbil will likely see I cater to a diverse group of pets and think I’m likely to include them.

It’s not about representing every single group all the time, rather it’s recognising that white is not the default and that by choosing images only including white people it’s likely to make some people from other backgrounds feel excluded. When choosing more diverse images then hopefully more people coming from minority background will see that the group is diverse and feel visible, welcome and included, regardless of whether there is somebody in the image of their exact heritage.

I agree with you OP and good on you for raising it. I think it's important to represent diversity of race, size, gender, etc and this is something I keep in mind when advertising organisations that I'm part of (non-profit orgs, in case people start talking about how 'woke advertising' is just money grabbing )

If they can't accept constructive criticism about equality then... That's something that'll come and bite them if their group expands in the future. Get away from them and leave them to it.

@BritWifeinUSA

So you have no problem that the group excludes men but you have a problem that they used a picture of only white hands?

OP wanted a photo that was more representative of the members of that group. Who that group does or doesn’t include is not part of the debate. If the group did include men but the picture was only of women (and vice versa) the same request could be made.

@londongirl12 “ Most people would just look at the photo and see a group of women”

Most white people who have never spent any time thinking about racism would see that.

And for some reason, many of those white people then get very riled up if someone else sees something different. When you see your own race as the default, it’s so disconcerting to have it pointed out that you also have a racial identity, that it’s not the same as everyone else’s and that a picture of five people all of the same race doesn’t represent or feel welcoming to many of the real people in that group, that you get angry and attack the person who points this out to you.

OP I’m sorry you got so much grief in the group and on this thread. I’m shocked at the poll results. People really do love to cling on to their belligerent ignorance.

So much whataboutery and bs on this thread. Outraged people - ask yourself really and truly why this request upsets you so much? What are you trying to defend? Why does it matter to you?

This isn’t woke posturing, this is a real person who feels unwelcome and unrepresented in a public space and politely asked for a small but significant change. And instead of trying to understand where she’s coming from all you want is to fight with her, belittle her and with your words, push her out of whatever space she was trying to join. That’s racism in action.

@BritWifeinUSA

So you have no problem that the group excludes men but you have a problem that they used a picture of only white hands?

It's a group for women. Don't be ridiculous.

YANBU OP. I think some people (myself included tbh) are pretty worn out by endless identity politics and have a knee-jerk response, but you are definitely not wrong here. This isn't virtue signalling, this is asking for a photo chosen to represent the group to actually represent the group.

It is easy as a white person to think it doesn't matter, to think its just a photo, its trivial. But that's because as a white person, we are not the ones being excluded on a daily basis.

There would be an uproar on here if it was a group aimed at both men and women, but it was just men in the photo.

Jesus Christ the responses here!! I think if it were a FB group for a general group of women and the admin put up a picture of a group of only black women, plenty of white women could take that to mean "this is a group for black women", "is the admin trying to make a point by only including black women in the picture", "is this group not for me".

The OP doesn't seem to have addressed this by saying "hey, you racist bitches, how dare you". She simply pointed out that the picture wasn't inclusive. The women in the group took that to mean they were being accused of racism, and piled on, making it her issue instead of theirs. If they REALLY didn't want to be racist, they should have responded by saying "oh, I never thought about it like that. Sure, I'll change it, thank you for bringing it up" not "fuck you the white women represent everyone so the pic stays" 😂 How people think this is fine is beyond me. So, in short, no @UnshakenNeedsStirring you are not being unreasonable.

White people (I include myself in this) who really want to not be racist need to accept that actually, by the very fact that we exist in society, we have probably absorbed some of the institutional and structural racism that surrounds us. That's okay and it doesn't make us bad people, but we should be trying to reflect on how that may have affected our beliefs and behaviours on a subconscious level and then actively working to tackle those, rather than just shouting "I'M NOT A RACIST" any time anyone brings up a race issue. It mightn't be the most comfortable thing to face, but ignoring it won't make it not true 🤷🏻‍♀️

OP I think you had every right to voice your opinion. I think the admin was honest when she said that she googled some images and picked one that she liked without thinking. However the group is supposed to be inclusive and positive and if she knew some members felt the picture was not representative of the groups diversity I don't know why she refused to consider changing it to one of the many others suggested. It is her group and ultimately up to her at the end of the day but it was disappointing that your opinion was dismissed like it was.

She will not allow others to help her with admin despite many offers which is strange as the group has over 3.5k members currently and I'm sure it must be quite demanding.

For what its worth the admin on that group has set up numerous Facebook friendship groups for women and she usually leaves them either because of Facebook bans or because she doesn't like it when the general consensus opinion is against her.

Ive attached the cover picture so posters can see what this was all about.

I honestly think this illustrates how much MN likes to have a fucking argument. If your OP had been a written as a white woman expressing eye - rolling exasperation over someone requesting a more inclusive photo then you would've been blasted into next week for your racist attitude. Not one person would dare to agree, saying "Does it really matter? How can she get worked up about a picture FFS?! Don't engage."

YANBU.

What's this fb group for - some sort of support group or what? I'm intrigued now.

I too am intrigued as to what kind of group it is. That had been so affected in the pandemic. But has 10's of women commenting, once OP posted.

I couldn't care less what the picture is. But you clearly do. I can't see the issue.

Presumably you were asking for the picture to be changed to one more like this?

I'm also intrigued about what the group is?

I think you're right OP, and sorry you've had some shitty responses on here. My workplace is diverse. We reflect this on any internal and external visual materials. This is normal, a no-brainier, not a big ask at all.