Excluded from family because we didn’t go for Xmas lunch

[Glenorma]

DH, his two sisters and his mother have a “Family” chat where they message each other with photos of the grandkids, info about what’s happening in their lives, plan meetups (when that was allowed) etc. They were always complaining that DH is crap and didn’t take any photos of the kids, didn’t respond when asked when he’d like to meet or which restaurant we should go to, etc. They would ask him repeatedly and then end up texting me because he wasn’t responding. So they added me to the conversation to make it easier. Several years passed.

At Christmas MIL wanted us all to come for lunch. It would have been allowed because we are 3 households plus a single mum who is bubbled with MIL so doesn’t count. But I didn’t feel comfortable mixing because I have an immune disorder so I asked DH to decline. He didn’t. Weeks passed.

In the end I messaged and said very sorry but we won’t be coming because of my health issues - we’d prefer to stay safe until I get vaccinated, hope we can meet by Easter.

MIL immediately removed herself from the conversation. Nobody else ever sent a single message in that conversation ever again. I found out from SIL that MIL was going nuts, sobbing because she wasn’t getting her family Christmas, she flung the Xmas decorations in the pond, was threatening to kill herself, etc. I texted and called her but got no reply.

A month has passed. My SILs have contacted me separately to pass on a few photos, ask me what DH would like for his birthday, usual stuff. They seem fine with me. MIL has never contacted me again. She needed to drop something off for DH while he was out so she sent her neighbour, presumably because she didn’t want to see me.

Today I saw a text pop up on DH’s phone and realised they have set up a new Family chat that doesn’t include me. DH is being his usual crap self and not bothering to reply or send any photos. So basically I’ve been excluded, but more importantly my kids have been excluded because they no longer get any photos or hear anything about them.

I actually find it very hurtful to be excluded from the family like this. I’m no longer getting regular photos of my nieces and nephews which I used to get every day or two. No updates on what people are doing. And they hear virtually nothing from us. I’m also wondering what will happen when we’re allowed to meet up again? Will I not be invited? Or is MIL expecting me to turn up and be civil after she’s treated me like this, and just pretend everything is normal?

He doesn’t put you or your DCs first. He prioritises his insane mother. That’s the heart of the issue. Since he won’t defend your DC from her batshit behaviour, you must.

@Glenorma

Is your MIL usually such a narcissist? Unfortunately we haven’t always seen eye to eye because she has form for being selfish and huffy. She ruined my wedding and several other things. I try to be civil and not trigger her.

BUT her response is totally OTT and disproportionate
It always is. For example, one time in a shop she tried on shoes that looked very tight and narrow, so I said there’s a wide fit version here if you’d like to try it? She kicked off and started screaming SHE CALLED ME FAT!! DH had to drive her home and I had to get the bus because she wouldn’t share the car with me. She didn’t speak to me for weeks afterward. DH later said you have to keep your mouth shut! If her shoes don’t fit, say nothing. If she’s wrong, say nothing. Always say nothing!

Why is your DH allowing this to continue? Why doesnt he leave other group?
It’s his family. I wouldn’t expect him to cut them off.

I'm guessing that your husband and his sisters have normalised this crap because they've grown up with it but it's not normal.
They just shrug and ignore it, keep their mouths shut even when they don’t agree with her behaviour, and try not to trigger her. That’s why DH didn’t speak up and say we weren’t going for Xmas - because he knew what would happen. He’s happy because she’s still talking to him!

Why on earth do you want to be included in such a toxic bunch?
My SILs are nice ladies, I love my nieces and nephews and they’re my kids only family. I’m concerned that my kids are just being forgotten about, even when we’re allowed I certainly won’t be able to take them to visit MIL any more. And when we’re allowed to meet up am I going to be excluded from now on?

It sounds like you are better off out of it. Leave it to DH to deal with - it's on him.

But I like the suggestion up-thread to start a 'cousins' group and share photos and news there of your dc.

This is a blessing in disguise. MIL sounds incredibly toxic and batshit and the less contact you have with her the better. As PP have suggested, you can contact (and build relationships) with the SIL directly and that way your children can maintain relationships with their cousins.

The larger issue then. The consensus on this thread is extremely vitriolic towards your husband considering that he and his sisters have been victims of a toxic, narcissistic, controlling mother for their entire lives. It's quite obvious that all of them have learned coping mechanisms to deal with her.

Those coping mechanisms are obviously neither ideal nor fair to you, though. But yelling about how he's a wimp or a wet lettuce or lacks backbone won't help. Imagine telling a woman who'd gone through a controlling or abusive relationship those things.

You DO need to draw a line for him about how you will and will not be treated, and you CAN say you expect him to stick up for you more, and you CAN say that his policy of never saying anything that might cause his mother to kick off (which ends up as never saying anything at all) is not fair to you.

Has he ever opened up to you about how he's felt growing up and living in that home environment? Or does he try to sweep it all under the carpet, emotionally, and pretend everything's OK? If the latter you have a much longer way to go to unpick his coping mechanisms - he has to realise there's a problem first. Counselling is, I would say, a MUST for him if he's not doing it already.

So you need to talk to him and lay it out straight - don't make it about this, or any, specific situation, but the larger pattern. Don't mince your words but your angle isn't about his failings but about the emotional and practical effects his strategy has on you, his wife. I hope this will be the kick he needs to realise, himself, that things need to change.

In light of all of this, reduced contact with MIL herself is an even better thing. Treasure it!

You have a husband problem here, he needed to have declined the invite and then managed the situation. I’m sorry that the result is that your Mil lost the plot, is she normally like that or is it the times we are in?

Your DH needs to have your back, take some of the blame and try to sort this out. It’s too easy to just blame you

I don't know why you are worried she will get unfettered access to your children if you divorce- she doesn't seem to have any interest in your children! Or your husband come to that. I think what is far more likely is he wouldn't keep close contact with her and he wouldn't take the kids over there much at all, as she's disinterested in them.

The wedding dress story is unbelievable- I do partly think that leaving it til the day is bizarre on your part, I wouldn't wait if my husband to be said let my mum sort it, I mean it was your dress, your day, I can't actually understand how this was allowed to happen. That said, it's clear your MIL hated you from day one and so you should be glad to be away from his toxic mum and the fact no-one else stands up to her. Over the years one by one, the other families/cousins will also move away from her as well. You are not really missing out on a healthy loving family tbh.

There’s a thing where you have a toxic mother in law and week husband where he can’t cope with his angry feelings towards MIL, so he becomes really passive and let’s you do all the feeling and emoting for him.

So your there burning with hurt, humiliation and anger and he gets to be all calm and say “calm down dear” like he is the reasonable one.

Likewise how you describe him shoving your children in front of her, begging for her love, attention and approval even though she isn’t interested shows how damaged he is.

So your only action is to “drop the rope”. You stop allowing him to use you and your children as human shields. You refuse to discuss her (unless you are in a marriage counselling session - see below). If he mentions her you just shrug ‘huh’, ‘oh’ ‘oh well’. You give him nothing!
Now observe. He will do anything to get you to emote for him. He’ll start telling you what’s happen on the what’s app because he knows that would have got a reaction from you before. He’ll suddenly have a burning need for IL family comms meet-ups that he’s never had before, because he needs you to step in and start “how very dare she-img” around the place do he can then go back to being passive. Whatever you do, just be indifferent. When he tells you she’s said or done something outrageous, smile as inscrutably as the Mona Lisa and say, “oh well”.
It will feel weird, it will feel wrong. He’ll start trying to make you react do you release all his tension. But you don’t. He is the one that needs to feel his hate and anger. It doesn’t help him if you express it for him.

I suggest you get some individual counselling to help you find your boundaries and assertiveness.

Likewise a condition of your marriage continuing is that he needs extensive individual counselling, followed by marriage counselling. You will need to select your counsellors carefully by asking them about their approach before you go in for a session (not all are good). Ones that specialise in families dealing with addiction are often good because they recognise the toxic / enabler / appeasing dynamic that occurs in families and can help those like your DH who are stuck in fog of appeasement. I would also suggest that he looks for a male counsellor because that dynamic will be helpful to him and not feel like “more women hanging up on him”

OP, I was the child in this scenario. Not a MIL but another relative who, for various reasons I won’t bore you with, my parents felt obliged to see regularly throughout my childhood even though he bullied and verbally abused my parents and I every single visit. And everyone he came into contact with but had a particular venom for my mum as she was the one who married into the family (like you), had a spine and would answer back. That venom was also directed at me as I was her child. I left home at 18 and went no contact with all of my extended family (not my parents who were wonderful, just got this situation completely wrong).

There was no point trying to have a relationship with other relatives separately, the whole thing was too toxic but in my 20s, I formed good relationships with them separately but it took time. You have to accept that you can’t have a relationship with the SILs and their kids, maybe in years to come but not now as they are in FOG. So forget about a separate WhatsApp group.

Please don’t do this to your kids. You have every right to go no contact with MIL and decide that for the kids too. Tell your DH that his family no longer come to your house, if he invites them then you and DC go out. If he talks about MIL, say that you don’t want to hear about, and repeat every time. Insist the DC don’t go if he visits MIL, they are your kids for gods sake, stand up for them. If he pushes back, then divorce him.

If you did divorce, your husband (there's no 'D' here) would have them, hopefully, EOW and once in the week.

You have already said that his mother isn't interested and he is very passive about contact. So how much damage do you think she can do to them when it's counterbalanced by them returning home to you?

Your DH sounds crap. His mother sounds like a lunatic. I’d be glad to be away from her drama if I were you. I’d just message your sils separately and ignore mil completely.

Once you’re in marriage counselling you refuse to discuss MIL except in counselling sessions. If he brings her up in the meantime, you just tell him to save it for the session. He needs to learn to deal with her instead of getting you to do it.

I’d not bring up the what’s app group again. Thank your lucky stars you don’t have to talk to the toxic witch and her enablers. Drop the rope! Let him deal with his family. Also make sure you don’t do any more wife work like buying his sisters and nieces and nephews presents etc. That’s his responsibility now. “He deals with his family” is your new mantra. However outrageous they are, you shrug and say “meh”.

In the meantime you refuse to let him visit her with your children, but without you. Either he commits to you as a family, or he goes alone.

In the meantime google “flying monkeys, scapegoats and enablers” because everyone is going to try to pull you back into the place you had because they are shit-scared of you saying “enough is enough” because once you refuse to play, they know they are next on line. Which is why counselling just for you will be helpful so you can stand firm.

I think there are two books often recommended “Toxic families” and “Toxic In-laws”. Worth a read.

Sorry you have a husband problem not MIL.
You are being abused by her in his place/shoes instead of him.
Why should you be punished?
From now no contact.

Your first decision is whether you are prepared to stay with your husband. You have to tell him that as far as you are concerned your MIL is dead and neither you or your dcs will be seeing her. Tell him his dsis's are welcome to visit and keep in contact with them.

You can't prevent him from seeing his dm

You and DH should be on the same team. You’re not. Maybe after his whole life being this way, he needs help and support to stand up to her.

Can you turn some of the things into a joke? I mean, she is ridiculous at times, eg getting so hysterical about shoe sizes!! She needs to take her place as a silly woman in DH’s head, rather than some scary ogre. He can stop reacting to her as he did when he was a child.

Perhaps some “what shall we do about this WhatsApp issue?” conversations - make it clear that if she excludes you she has insulted both of you, so you need to decide how to approach it together. If he refuses, then send a clear message to the family WhatsApp, making it clear you know they’re using a separate group and being surprised they have been unable to discuss issues with you first. Be the adult, imagine it’s a workplace issue.

I don’t envy you your situation.

I just can’t think why you would have got married and have had kids with this man. You knew what the situation was like so being stuck in it now is your fault. MIL and DH are responsible for their behaviour but you’re responsible for staying in the situation

@catchabreak2020

I just can’t think why you would have got married and have had kids with this man. You knew what the situation was like so being stuck in it now is your fault. MIL and DH are responsible for their behaviour but you’re responsible for staying in the situation

Well she did marry him. So what you can and cannot “just think” about it is besides the point now. She needs advice for the situation she’s in?, FGS, not advice that she should have avoided the situation.

Your DH should be telling you mil that you are his wife and its important for her to be nice and make an effort. She doesnt like you. Stop making an effort, she is your DHs problem or at very least match his effort. Its not your place to be on better terms eith his family than him. Does he make the effort you make with your family? Didnt think so :) the wedding dress fiasco is unforgiveable and you are justified to never speak to her again. If in future you go to family events and she is there, match what she does to you. If she speaks to you then be polite and civil but there is no need for anymore. Then you cant be accused of being 'exclusionary' like you fear

If I had a mother-in-law like this I would have a lot of fun winding her up on purpose

OP, buy him the book Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, and tell him he reads it or else.

If you divorced and went to court to sort out access arrangements, it's not a given that he could take them to see his mother. You obviously have a LOT of instances where she's been totally unreasonable. Write it all out. Your grounds for divorcing him would be unreasonable behaviour, and it centres on her, so it wouldn't take much of a stretch to expect that the court could acknowledge that. Parents have a right to see their children, grandparents don't.

How old are the children? Part of the court process is CAFCASS talking to the children to see what they want to do. Would they want to see her? They could still see their cousins without her.

I really hope that writing out examples of her behaviour, plus the responses you've had, helps you to see that you can't go on like this for however many years. It will destroy you.

There whole family dynamic is batshit. It is sad that the sil's are not sending you pics of your nieces and nephews so much but if it means less contact with their deranged mother I would take it on the chin. You have been very accommodating of your mil and her delusions and I am very much one for taking one for the team in terms of supporting a partner but this is enough. Tell your dh if he wants contact with his mother he needs to facilitate it himself. You will not be going over to hers or allowing the children to go. Tbh from your posts she seems disinterested in your children anyway. Until she apologises she should not be welcome in your home. The relationship with her is toxic and unhealthy and she needs to be called out on it. Your dh needs to get a grip and rediscover his balls, if his mother is disrespecting you that is not OK and he ought to stand in your corner.

*Their

I don't know why you are worried she will get unfettered access to your children if you divorce- she doesn't seem to have any interest in your children!
He pushes them on her despite her disinterest. Pre Covid he was always picking up the toddler and putting him on MIL’s lap (she let him sit there but ignored him), telling DC to cuddle her (ignored), repeatedly saying “here’s grandma, hurrah!” (cue blank looks from the toddler who had no idea who she was because she never bothered with him), etc. I don’t like it. It’s repeating an abusive pattern and teaching my DC to do the pick-me dance with someone who doesn’t give a shit. If I’m not around I expect he’ll push even harder, he was talking about her having DC overnight until I put a stop to it.

How old are the children?
Preschool so too young to have an opinion. They have no idea who she is so wouldn’t want to see her, but DH obviously wants them to.

I really hope that writing out examples of her behaviour, plus the responses you've had, helps you to see that you can't go on like this for however many years.
No. I’m done with her. Whether I stay with DH depends on what happens post Covid when they want to see us again.

make it clear that if she excludes you she has insulted both of you
His attitude is that MIL is always right and I’m either a.wrong or b.nasty for disagreeing with her behaviour and refusing to see her. The last time we argued about it I said she’s been horrible to me for years, and he said of course she hasn’t been horrible to you - she bakes you a dairy free cake every time we visit! Total denial of how badly she has treated me.

You can leave OP. Your fears about her access to them are not accounting for their protections:

First:
Their protection is the love and security they get from you. They don't need grandma (as you DH does) - their person to do the 'pick me dance' for is you ...and you always pick them; they are safe .

Second
Her lack of interest in your children is also protection for them She is never going to be that important in their lives (they have you)- so they will not have motivation to work at winning her favour. Actually, her lack of interest is likely to make her boring to them. Her tantrums will repell them too.

We all have people in our lives who don't like us/ don't think we matter/ try to hurt us. So long as those people are not really important - we cope well (If secure, we naturally tend not to like those who don't appreciate us.)

Some grandparents are really important of course; this one is not.

Remember that unlike your DH (and his siblings) , your children do not need her love.

It sounds as if he is far too important to her for them to get her attention. The harder he trys to make her love them - the more she will be distanced and uninterested. It keeps him on a string.

I do sympathise with your dh. My mother was very like this and I get the total fear, obligation, guilt cycle which ends with you putting up with stuff, ignoring stuff, anything for an easy life, trying to appease her.

However there reading should be a point where end is enough. Your dh needs to get on the Stately Homes thread. Read some of the books recommendations on here about toxic parents.

My mother was once vile to dh in our home and he slung her out (I wasn’t there). But when he told me what he’d done I supported him. She was never allowed back in our home. I was low contact with her for the next few years and would go to her house or meet her for a coffee, etc but she never once set foot in our home again. Dh was my priority.

I think your husband has a kind of trauma bond with his mother and that's why he's willfully blind to her terrible behaviour