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On our way to Biden's Inauguration (Trump #119)

999 replies

Roussette · 09/01/2021 11:21

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4128420-Capitol-Hill-and-the-next-2-weeks-Trump-118?watched=1&msgid=103459695#103459695

Here we are on our fast moving theads

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
PerkingFaintly · 09/01/2021 17:46

Dr. Danna Young
@dannagal
And that excellent thread is here:
twitter.com/dannagal/status/1347588207433707527

Roussette · 09/01/2021 17:47

So agree with you Across. I know my vote makes not a jot of difference where I live, but I won't not vote. My MP has been in the seat 27 years, he is truly awful and was voted at the very bottom and the worst out of all 650 MPs as far as constituency support and responsiveness. (He is not on SM and ignores emails)
BUT slowly slowly ... every election his margin might come down until one day he is GONE. or I just move !

OP posts:
Zebracat · 09/01/2021 17:48

I have found some success in respectfully reminding people of shared values. There was quite a movement on FB etc Allier this year to condemn any criticism of Boris Johnson or the Government as treasonous. It seemed linked to me to underhand attempts to whip up hatred against the BBC. When a cousin started posting loads of this stuff, I very gently reminded her that a free press is the cornerstone of democracy( and yes , I know and I have my own concerns about the BBC).
I have noticed that she seems to be taking a more measured approach since, although that might be because she works in a school, and came up against the Governments Covid lies personally.
Recently I’ve been getting loads of stuff from the left wing of the Labour Party, alleging that all the Starmer voters always hated Corbyn , and I’ve popped up and said that, no, I loved Corbyn and joined the party because of him, and then had to see that he was not a good leader, and voted Starmer. For me, it’s about not letting people impose an Us and Them narrative. It has to be said though, I do struggle to empathise or find common ground with Trump and the GOP.

Roussette · 09/01/2021 17:48

Thanks Perking following and reading

OP posts:
Lipz · 09/01/2021 17:50

Oh god just seen on CNN the video released of the police man being squashed in the door by all the rioters. They were ripping his gas mask off, shoving his face backwards, hitting and punching him and really squashing him hard and he was screaming for help. Oh Jesus that actually stopped me in my tracks and made me well up. I hope he's OK.

PerkingFaintly · 09/01/2021 17:50

Worth reading her whole thread, but here's her summary of advice towards the end:

Dr. Danna Young
@dannagal
8 Jan
So, of COURSE data and facts and empirical evidence is going to be ineffectual. It's about what "FEELS RIGHT." and what "FEELS WRONG." Which means these beliefs are guided by values, social identity, and cues in their environment that SIGNAL to them what is true.

Values.
Social identity.
Signals.
Emotions.

Because of the world they are in right now the most salient constructs within each of these categories is likely:

Values: traditionalism & nationalism
Social identity: MAGA conservative Republican Real American
Signals: from Trump, OANN, FOX, Newsmax
Emotions: Anger, resentment

So to reclaim these beloved friends and family, it's about diluting these forces with new ones (or old ones):

Values: family & friendship
Social identity: mother, sister, father, friend
Signals: from loving non-judging loved ones
Emotions: love, caring, respect

PerkingFaintly · 09/01/2021 17:57

This is also very good, with excellent examples from across the world (I particularly like the Taiwan toilet paper meme). It has links to related work.

How Civil Society Can Combat Misinformation and Hate Speech Without Making It Worse
By Joan Donovan, Research Director of Harvard Kennedy School’s Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy
medium.com/political-pandemonium-2020/how-civil-society-can-combat-misinformation-and-hate-speech-without-making-it-worse-887a16b8b9b6

The headings include:

Civil Society Response: Six Strategies for Countering Misinformation and Hate Speech
1.Connected Communities
[...]
2. Fact/Fallacy/Fact or “The Truth Sandwich”
[...]
3. Prebunking
[...]
4. Distributed Debunking
[...]
5. Localize the Context
[...]
6. Humor Over Rumor

Roussette · 09/01/2021 17:58

Oh dear.

Jr. is having a massive rant on Twitter about his Dad being banned. It is quite funny actually because it makes no sense and is bordering on incoherent just like his Dad

OP posts:
Mittens030869 · 09/01/2021 18:01

We always knew the apple hadn't fallen far from the tree where Jr is concerned.

FATEdestiny · 09/01/2021 18:02

From MSNBC
"The president is in a very fragile mental state right now and he's not taking well to what's happening," Philip Rucker says. "He feels betrayed by his VP ... and a lot of admin. officials are very uncertain about what he might do tomorrow."

Is he a gun owner?
Could he be a suicide risk?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/01/2021 18:03

Oh FFS. This grey-haired little old lady, a retired estate agent aged 65:

“We are fed up. There are so many people fed up with how crooked it is,” she said. “I really don’t have respect for our Congress anymore. They deep-sixed the president. It’s the first time in history I’ve seen one’s own party treat their president the way they did — it’s shameful.’’

She is old enough to remember Nixon, I would have thought. And what his party did about him.

(It's from <a class="break-all" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/trump-voters.html#click=t.co/6y97W9aYZY" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/trump-voters.html#click=t.co/6y97W9aYZY linked upthread.)

TheNorthWestPawsage · 09/01/2021 18:03

Thanks for all the interesting links upthread. A lot to catch up on but definitely worth the time. Smile

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/01/2021 18:05

FATEdestiny
From MSNBC
"The president is in a very fragile mental state right now and he's not taking well to what's happening," Philip Rucker says. "He feels betrayed by his VP ... and a lot of admin. officials are very uncertain about what he might do tomorrow."
Is he a gun owner?
Could he be a suicide risk?

I think he is too much of a coward, honestly.

overworkedhubby · 09/01/2021 18:07

You are not simple--we are now seeing the USA in its true colours now Trump has peeled away the veneer of US respectability, the US will never again be viewed as the worlds protector of freedom and democracy. How does a nation so powerful put itself into the hands of a mentally retarded idiot, freshly escaped from some unsecure asylum. Never has a nation taken such a downfall while the nation looks on pacified and subdued and treating the whole episode as a joke. America has been destroyed in its standing and respect the whole world over and now stands for nothing really. Just so glad I am not from there.

terrywynne · 09/01/2021 18:10

Thank you for the continuing thoughts everyone!

Off the back of this thread I did just have a conversation with a friend who works in the tech industry (not social media company but did a compsci type degree) about the issue of software engineers working on abstract problems that have major real world consequences, and the fact that unlike medics they don't have ethics/philosophy of tech as part of their studies or a Hippocratic oath. (sorry I can't remember which poster had a long post about this!)

Their initial take was that they see a software engineer as more like the maker of medical equipment rather than a doctor. Their algorithms and platforms are tools that other people use. So the person who makes a scalpel doesn't decide how the doctor uses it.

I did point out that the people at the top of tech companies who do make decisions on what is done with data, who gets excluded from platforms etc often start as software engineers so they should maybe do the ethics early. Which they did take on board (yay!) but questioned how you would practically deliver the course ie: as part of which degrees, when there are more routes into the tech industry. You can do four year under grad degrees or masters degrees. Maths, Compsci, physics, electrical engineering etc.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting take on how an 'in a bubble thinking in terms of abstract problem solving' software engineers thinks about it. (And maybe I made them think more about it than they had before).

Destinysdaughter · 09/01/2021 18:13

I read recently that lonely pp are more prone to believing conspiracy theories. Is it because they are not having rational conversations in real life with other people, or because they have a need to feel special and a sense of belonging with other outsiders?

Whatever the reason, it's a real problem, especially with so many pp isolated at the moment

littledrummergirl · 09/01/2021 18:14

I have a close much loved relative who is well and truly down the rabbit hole. I now try to preempt the rubbish before them so I can understand their thinking.
They say do research so I do, I go back to them to discuss my findings and how they compare. I need them to be persuaded about the vaccine as they care for a vulnerable person. Crap about containing hiv, foetuses, chemicals, microchips are driving me crazy. I found that rooting through the rubbish to find the grain of truth and then explaining what actually happened has helped but lockdown means I can't see them at the moment and the conspiracies are surfacing again.
Trump has a lot to answer for.

Roussette · 09/01/2021 18:17

It's worth linking this thread again. Chilling. On what Trump was asking his 'troops' to do.

Fur man with horns has a defence saying the President told him to storm the Capitol....

twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1347911040521166849

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 09/01/2021 18:27

I think a key thing to remember in the US is that there area LOT of split ticket voters
Who voted Blue to get Trump out
But Red at Senate, Congress and State level
and then vote middling at township level
because the requirements vary

Here in the UK, I like my MP but have a very different view of the party leader
At Local Authority election level, the needs from a County Council are different from a Borough council are different from a Parish council

so its possible to reach across the divide by changing the level of the focus

PerkingFaintly · 09/01/2021 18:28

I hope Danna Young will forgive me for C&P'ing wholesale.

Here is more of her thread:

This all feeds into their need to believe in alternative narratives and conspiracy theories because the mainstream press, and mainstream institutions are out to get them (or keep them down). So, any information or evidence that comes from or through these institutions is suspect.

Therefore, the only real inroads that can be made are through emotional connections with loving, trusted contacts rooted NOT in information but in emotional connection and inquiry.
I know. People rolls their eyes when I say this. Yes. It's fucking hard.

I'm not talking about engaging lovingly with the crazy dude at the gas station who's telling you to take off your mask cause COVID is a hoax. I'm talking about your friends and family who have been lost to this elite-driven (read: Trump) conpiratopia.

Since psychological reactance is HUGE with folks who feel disrespected and maligned, the key is to establish the conditions to allow them to let guards down.

Psychological reactance is a combination of anger and active counter-argumentation to incoming information. It's a nightmare for persuasion campaigns.

So the key is to diffuse that process before it starts.

In health communication, campaign developers often do this by embedding information in stories and soap operas...

With interpersonal relationships, the key is to capitalize on the love and trust that exists between individual people. In my experience, playing dumb and neutral and open-hearted goes a long way here.

And before you yell at me that we shouldn't have to do this - Yeah. no shit. but apparently we do if we want relationships with these folks and we want to keep our loved ones to exist in the reality-based community.

Example. Imagine a parent who doesn't want to get vaccinated because they believe all sorts of crazy stuff about the vaccine:

"I totally understand your concerns. The world is upside down and it's hard to know what info to trust. Ultimately, it's your decision. I would just hate to see you unable to participate in your old favorite activities or unable to see friends because you don't get vaccinated."

It also might help to tap into possible other trusted elite sources. Do they trust their general practitioners? Often times even conspiracy theorists trust THEIR OWN doctors.

Maybe something like, "I hear you. These are scary times. Have you asked Doctor XX what he/she thinks you should do? Maybe ask the doctor if they themselves got vaccinated..."

Maybe tapping into NOT empirical scientific evidence, but powerful emotional and visual cues: "I have friends who are nurses & doctors who were so overwhelmed with gratitude when getting the vaccine that they wept. They see it as something that will really save lives."

Asking broader questions can help, too, always prefaced with a line that serves as an emotional "welcome mat:"

"I understand you're angry. If I were in your shoes I would be mad, too. But what if the people working to make you angry have something to gain from your anger?"

Destinysdaughter · 09/01/2021 18:43

PerkingFaintly that is very good advice. I have a friend who is diabetic and has spent much of lockdown on her own. We had a conversation recently and she said she wasn't going to take the vaccine as she don't trust it as it had been rushed out too quickly. She's 60 and diabetic, so potentially vulnerable. I didn't argue with her, just tried to calmly tell her what I had read about why they had managed to develop it so quickly. Although tbh I wanted to shake some sense into her!

Anyhow, the next week she posted on FB that she'd been having a conversation with her pharmacist who seemed to have been able to reassure her that it was safe and that it was the only way out. So, seems like it was hearing a trusted source ( per that article ) that changed her mind.

Sleipnirthewonderhorse · 09/01/2021 18:44

Trump is reduced to sharing information via the club penguin message boards

On our way to Biden's Inauguration (Trump #119)
Roussette · 09/01/2021 18:45

Blimey.
On Parler.
They all think Trumpy is going to pardon them...

On our way to Biden's Inauguration (Trump #119)
OP posts:
Witchend · 09/01/2021 18:48

@Roussette

Blimey. On Parler. They all think Trumpy is going to pardon them...
Or alternatively could it be used as a confessional. Convicted by their own voices. That would be fun.
PatriciaHolm · 09/01/2021 18:49

@Roussette

Blimey. On Parler. They all think Trumpy is going to pardon them...
Surely that's someone trolling them for a list of self-incriminating guilty..?

..surely...?!!

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